Date
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URGENT HELP NEEDED WITH DIET
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eissagholian@...
Hello,
I have a IR horse that has rotated in the hind left and we are working on recovery with a really good hoof practitioner. However, I really need help with her diet as she is refusing to eat soaked hay. I have tried mixing it with regular dry timothy but she is still not eating it at all. I tested my hay and the results are the following: WSC: 10.4; ESC: 7.7; Starch: .3. I also feed her magnesium and biotin 2% from Uckele along with jiaogulan and chia seeds mixed with a cup of bermuda pellets. I really need help figuring out what balancer she needs and what I need to add or remove from her feed. I have read the emergency diet and other diet recommendations but I am hoping someone can help me construct a good proper diet for her as I don't think I am understanding what she needs very well. Thanks in advance! -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond |
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Hi Ani
If your hay test was NIR vs Wet Chemistry, it may be too high to feed without soaking. Can you load your hay analysis into your CH folder, please? Can you give more detail about her refusal please? How long has she been refusing the soaked hay? Wills she eat this hay without the soaked mixed in? Sorry more questions than answers. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2021-2022 |
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Hi Nancy!
A very friendly lady at Equine Analytic labs just told me their lab person is writing a scientific article (sorry not sure of the exact wording) about how NIR has usually so similar results as wet chem that they may no longer recommend wet chem because the difference is so minor. I wasn’t sure what to do with that information as it goes against what has been said here and well, I’ll always try to error on being super cautions. Maybe you all have heard about this news? -- Sharon Bice December 2020 Sandia Park, New Mexico Taillight's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History Taillight's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Sharon, That's nothing new as far as EA pushing NIR over wet chem. You do need to bear in mind that if you have a non-IR horse the 30% difference we've seen in some tests may not be a big deal. However, if you have a horse that can't handle ESC+starch over a certain percentage you want to have the most accurate number possible to make diet decisions.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Oh okay! Thx so much Sherry. No IR horse, Ms. Tailight is PPID, but will still do the wet chem. :) Thx and happy Monday!
-- Sharon Bice December 2020 Sandia Park, New Mexico Taillight's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History Taillight's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590 |
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ferne fedeli
Interestingly, I had a wide discrepancy between the #601 (NIR) that my hay supplier uses and the #603 (Wed Chem) that I did myself after the hay delivery. I am one of the ones that was always saying there was very little difference (which has been true for me for several years!), but this time, the ESC & starch on the 601 totaled 7.5 and my 603 totaled 10.0!!! Yikes!
-- Ferne Fedeli Magic & Jack 2007 Point Arena, Mendocino County, California
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eissagholian@...
Hi Nancy,
Where do I go to upload my hay analysis? The analysis is from Equi-Analytical. She has been refusing to eat it from day one. She does eat the hay when it's not soaked. Also, what other supplements do I need to give her? She currently gets magnesium and biotin 2% from Uckele along with jiaogulan and chia seeds mixed with a cup of bermuda pellets. Thank you for the help! I'm very confused about this whole diet situation. -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Ani, It would greatly help all the volunteers if you could update your case history to indicate current weight/ideal weight and current diet for your mare (including amounts as well as what she's eating). Do you have test results? If so, can you add those as well? You can find a list of people who can help you balance your hay here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING-1.pdf The hay should be fine to feed unsoaked unless she gets sore on it. Many horses need a lower ESC+starch number than our standard 10% recommendation. Unless your Bermuda pellets have been tested they should be replaced with rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp. Is there a reason you are not following the emergency diet outlined in your welcome letter?
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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I’d like to reinforce what Sherry just posted regarding the case history. We learn about so many horses here that it can be hard to keep track of whose is which. I went to your case history to reorient myself. I learned that you have a Gypsy Vanner mare, probably not old enough for PPID, might be getting too much hay and is thought to be IR. So, I went to look at all the messages you posted and the first thread is where you start filling in details, all of which should be in your case history for future reference. When I read your posts, I learned that she is most definitely IR and, in fact, likely in need of medication. She may not be eating the soaked hay because she doesn’t need to to support her needs. You can indeed soak hay once a day and hang the next meal’s hay, netted and out of the sun. You need to add salt to her diet and, if she doesn’t like it with other supplements, you can sprinkle it on the soaked hay, which might well make it tastier.
Also the emergency diet doesn’t need to be saved for outright emergencies. I keep it in my toolbox for whenever I think I might have a diet issue. It shouldn’t last forever but at least until you have a plan for replacing it. And it’s a quick way to find out if it’s the diet causing the problem. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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eissagholian@...
Hi Martha,
I'm having a difficult time navigating through here :) I'm very new to all this am I'm just trying to figure things out. Thank you for taking the time to go back and read through my posts. When we first tested my mare in April of 2022 her insulin was above 200 uiu/ml but on her second done in August 2022 her insulin was 48. What medication do I need? my vet is saying he does not think I need any medication because she does not have PPID. I have uploaded my most recent timothy test and have stopped soaking her hay. Currently she is getting the following supplements once a day in the evenings: 2 scoops of Biotin 2% from Uckele, 1 scoop of Magnesium from Uckele, 1 teaspoon of jiaogulan, 2 teaspoons of beet pulp, with 1/4 scoop of chia seeds and a cup of Bermuda pellets. I give her the supplements once in the evenings an during the day she gets a total of three flakes of Timothy one at 5:30am, one around 8-9am, and another around 2:30pm all in hay bags. I also give her a flake at night with her supplements. Each flake is about 3lbs. How often do I need to test her Insulin and how do I know what the ideal weight is for my mare? I'm a little lost... :( -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Ani, 1 - your current case history file is corrupt (at least it won't open for me) so I can't see any details in there. 2 - 48 is still an elevated insulin level. If your mare is losing weight hopefully her insulin will continue to come down as the weight comes off. If it does not or if it plateaus she may be in need of medication to get it down into a safer range. 3 - As far as your supplements we recommend you contact one of the trained balancers on this list: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING-1.pdf for assistance now that you have wet chem test results. This was also advised here: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED WITH DIET (groups.io). Again, we don't recommend the Bermuda pellets as a carrier as there are safer options out there for an IR horse. 4 - How much does your horse weigh and how much should she weigh? 9lbs of hay (assuming that is a weighed amount and not just an estimate) and the small amount of other products you listed are not enough to maintain her weight if she's more than 475lbs. We do NOT recommend underfeeding as that leads to a host of other issues.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 I give her the supplements once in the evenings an during the day she gets a total of three flakes of Timothy one at 5:30am, one around 8-9am, and another around 2:30pm all in hay bags. I also give her a flake at night with her supplements. Each flake is about 3lbs. How often do I need to test her Insulin and how do I know what the ideal weight is for my mare? I'm a little lost... :( -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond |
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On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 02:33 AM, <eissagholian@...> wrote:
how do I know what the ideal weight is for my mare? I'm a little lost... :(Hi Ani There is a horse weight calculator in the Wiki. Scroll down to the 'Case History' section. The ideal weight is how much she weighs when she is at a body condition score of 4.5 to 5 (there's info about that too in the Wiki here: Body Condition Scoring Guide.pdf (groups.io)). So as an example, my mare currently weighs around 400kg with a body condition score of 6 (hanging my head in shame here). She needs to lose some weight so I will cut back her hay a little and increase exercise. In a month or so I will use one of the methods in the Wiki link above to estimate her weight, and hopefully she will be around 380-390kg. However, I know from experience that her body condition score when at 380kg is still only around 5.5, so I will add more exercise and try to get her weight down to 370. Once she is at 370, I know she will be a nice body condition score of 5. So her ideal weight is 370kg. Hope this helps. -- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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eissagholian@...
Hi Sherry,
I re-uploaded my Case History and hay analysis. I hope it will work now. 1. How often do I need to test her insulin? 2. Where can I find a list of other carriers I can use other than Bermuda pellets? 3. My mare gets about 15-18lbs of Timothy a day. I would say her body condition is currently 5. 4. Where can I upload a photo of her so I can get opinions on her body condition? Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond. -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond |
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