Date
1 - 20 of 23
#file-notice #file-notice
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markthweb1@...
I have added a hay analysis and Stubbys latest blood work to her case file. I hope I did it right this time!
-- Toni Hayes, West Virginia, 2022 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Toni, Please add your case history folder link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%20and%20Stubby And photo album link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276034 To your signature. To do that: 1) Go to this link to amend your auto-signature: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/editsub 3) Add the 2 links I pasted above below your current signature. You may need to add a space after each link to make them 'live' 4) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE! Before you upload any files or photos you need to make sure you are in your own folder, not the main folder. I found the hay analysis and bloodwork in the main file section and moved them for you. The hay analysis was done via NIR and could be off by up to 30% for both the ESC and starch reading. That would put the hay technically in the safe range of under 10% but need to keep an eye on how she reacts as she's in the danger zone for laminitis with the current insulin reading. If she's on pasture still she needs to be off it NOW and she needs to be on Prascend ASAP although you're chasing the rise at this point. I would aim for getting her up to at least 2mg now and plan on retesting her after the rise to see if that's brought the ACTH down to a reasonable level. I'd also get her on Metformin now as her insulin is still quite elevated. The dosage for that is 30mg/kg 2x a day. Has she lost any weight since June? If you're still using Heiro you should save your money as it's obviously not working. Is the hay amount a guess or what she's actually being fed? Is it being soaked?
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 08:13:02 AM EDT, markthweb1 via groups.io <markthweb1@...> wrote:
I have added a hay analysis and Stubbys latest blood work to her case file. I hope I did it right this time! -- Toni Hayes, West Virginia, 2022 |
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markthweb1@...
Sherry, thank you very much for the instructions. I hope I followed them correctly. Stubby is still on pasture as I have no place to put her where she cannot access grass. I cannot create a dry lot for her because it would be a mud lot very shortly. I have tried grazing muzzles several times over the years, and she always manages to scrape them off or break them. She panics when I put them on. I finished the Heiro and have not purchased more since I was told it had not been found effective. She hasn't had any since June. She gets Remission, I have added Jiaogulan recently, and a bit of Glanzen 3. I am soaking the hay but will not be able to continue that, so I am trying to find better hay for the winter. She is moving around much better since I have added the Jiaogulan and seems much brighter. A question about dosage on Jiaogulan: I am dividing the dose into morning and evening and checking for pinkness in her gums. If her gums are pink in the morning, does she still need the evening dose or that sufficient for the day? I haven't found it easy to keep the dose exact as the stuff wants to fly away. I am using a teaspoon to measure and giving her approximately half a teaspoon each time. I calculate her weight to be near 300. Regarding the metformin, do horses have the same kind of reaction to it that people do? I have had several friends take it and become very ill. Are there things I should watch for? Stubby has a chronic diarrhea problem, she has been checked by the vet, no cause was found, but will metformin make that worse? Thanks for all the help!
-- Toni Hayes, West Virginia, 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%and%Stubby https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276034 |
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Hi Toni, the link to your Case History folder doesn't seem to work. Please replace it with this one:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%20and%20Stubby Can you also update your Case History with the diet changes you've made? I think it will be very important for Stubby's future health to figure out a way to create a dry lot. You can lay down old carpet or rubber mats, or scrape off the topsoil and put in sand. Since she's a mini she doesn't need a very big area so you can start small and gradually work on enlarging it. Have you started her on pergolide? I haven't heard of any issues with horses on Metformin other than the possibility of mouth ulcers if you have to syringe it in to get them to take it, in which case we advise mixing it with milk of magnesia, and rinsing with water afterwards. Some horses do eat it ground up in their food. Ideally jiaogulan is given 2x a day. You can make it into a paste with a bit of water and let her lick it up. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Hi Toni,
A recent post on possible inappetence with Metformin for some horses: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/281795 Just keep in mind that foot pain and high insulin makes them feel lousy, too, and that lowering insulin is the first step to seeing an improvement. Metformin can help with that. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Lesley Bludworth
Thank you Kirsten.
How long can the pain of acute laminitis take to resolve?
Her feet do not feel hot anymore and they fit into the boots much more easily.
The tip of the frog area is the most prominent spot on her soles both fronts, backs seem stable.
From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 10:49:54 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] #file-notice Hi Toni,
A recent post on possible inappetence with Metformin for some horses: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/281795 Just keep in mind that foot pain and high insulin makes them feel lousy, too, and that lowering insulin is the first step to seeing an improvement. Metformin can help with that. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ Sophie Case History 7/2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History |
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markthweb1@...
Kirsten, thank you for the information, I appreciate it. Right now she doesn't seem to be in any pain and is feeling pretty perky, thank goodness. I fear the cold weather will be hard on her feet like it was last winter though so I am contacting my vet to get the metformin approved and am praying it won't make her diarrhea worse. Washing her heinie in the winter is not much fun for either one of us
-- Toni Hayes, West Virginia, 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%and%Stubby https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276034 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Toni, Frankly a mud lot would be better for Stubby than being out on pasture. As Kirsten has already pointed out there a number of ways you can make her a safe area with no grass. Getting her off grass, on a controlled diet and getting her ACTH and insulin under control may go a long way to getting the diarrhea under control. Remission is just a very expensive form of Magnesium by the way. You can use MgOx from a feed store and save yourself quite a bit of money that way.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Toni,
Keep in mind that too magnesium in any form can also cause loose stools. Only add it if your hay analysis shows that Mg is deficient. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Lesley,
Pain improves within 24-72 hours of an insulin reduction, whether by diet or medication, and can continue to improve with time. I've seen an immediate reduction in pain in my own horse within 36 hours, and gradual improvement over the following several weeks for minor laminitic flareups caught early. More serious or prolonged acute laminitis can cause a lot more damage and take a lot longer to recover from. No matter what, you have to get the insulin under control to stop the damage and pain. Only then can they recover. If insulin is brought down to a safe level, but they are still in a lot of pain then the lingering pain is due to damage to the hoof. All you can do about that is get the hooves trimmed correctly to promote healthy growth and reduce stress on the damaged lamellae, and support them with pads in boots until a healthy hoof capsule grows in, which takes about 6-9 months assuming there are no additional laminitic events that damage the new growth. You should see an exponential improvement in pain levels over those 6-9 months. Abscesses are commonly a part of this healing process though and can be more painful than the acute laminitis. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Lesley Bludworth
Kirsten,
Thank you for the thorough explanation, I am afraid she is in the 9-month group.
I am so thankful she did not penetrate her soles
I hope her insulin is better on the metformin and diet.
Diet alone certainly did not do it.
Is it safe to have her exercise via swimming at this time?
I found an equine aquatic center not too far from here.
From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 10:15:52 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] #file-notice Lesley,
Pain improves within 24-72 hours of an insulin reduction, whether by diet or medication, and can continue to improve with time. I've seen an immediate reduction in pain in my own horse within 36 hours, and gradual improvement over the following several weeks for minor laminitic flareups caught early. More serious or prolonged acute laminitis can cause a lot more damage and take a lot longer to recover from. No matter what, you have to get the insulin under control to stop the damage and pain. Only then can they recover. If insulin is brought down to a safe level, but they are still in a lot of pain then the lingering pain is due to damage to the hoof. All you can do about that is get the hooves trimmed correctly to promote healthy growth and reduce stress on the damaged lamellae, and support them with pads in boots until a healthy hoof capsule grows in, which takes about 6-9 months assuming there are no additional laminitic events that damage the new growth. You should see an exponential improvement in pain levels over those 6-9 months. Abscesses are commonly a part of this healing process though and can be more painful than the acute laminitis. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ Sophie Case History 7/2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History |
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markthweb1@...
Kirsten, thank you for that info. I am aware that magnesium can cause loose stools but she has had that issue longer than she has been taking Remission. It has been an issue for several years but was much worse over the last winter. It started becoming more frequent last year around this time and was pretty consistent until April or May when it just stopped and her poops became normal. I was so relieved. Prematurely, it seems, because it’s back and I see another winter of chapped hands for me and frosty buns for her. Looking back I can see that it was always seasonal, but it wasn’t as severe, more sporadic. She was not on grass over the winter because there wasn’t any. We had snow, ice, or mud, her hay wasn’t soaked and she lost a lot of weight, but her insulin levels were higher than they are now
-- Toni Hayes, West Virginia, 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%20and%20Stubby https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276034 |
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Hi Lesley,
Non-weight bearing exercise is probably safe but she has to be comfortable enough to trailer first. I'd give it a bit of time. I agree you are in the longer recovery group. Once she is comfortable walking on her own you can start with in-hand walking in straight lines. People will progress to long lining or driving, then ridden work at about 9 months if all goes well. It all depends on the individual horse though. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Toni, cold weather increases insulin, making winter hay soaking more critical if you have a horse that is struggling, unfortunately. If you can add some safe, more easily digestible forage to her winter diet (r/s/r beet pulp, soy hull pellets, psyllium, or TC Timothy Naturals Balance cubes) you might be able to keep her weight on AND reduce the incidence/severity loose stools. She might have trouble chewing her hay thoroughly now that she's entering her senior years.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Lesley Bludworth
Kirsten,
She has stopped eating, she won't even eat the timothy pellets she likes.
Should I stop the metformin to see if that changes her appetite?
Blood draw for insulin levels was yesterday,
Vet said results by end of the week.
From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:05:03 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] #file-notice Toni, cold weather increases insulin, making winter hay soaking more critical if you have a horse that is struggling, unfortunately. If you can add some safe, more easily digestible forage to her winter diet (r/s/r beet pulp, soy hull pellets, psyllium,
or TC Timothy Naturals Balance cubes) you might be able to keep her weight on AND reduce the incidence/severity loose stools. She might have trouble chewing her hay thoroughly now that she's entering her senior years.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ Sophie Case History 7/2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History |
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Hi Lesley,
I responded to you here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/was_file_notice_now/93064843?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,0,93064843,previd%3D1660673623676696229,nextid%3D1660424796869894966&previd=1660673623676696229&nextid=1660424796869894966 Toni and Stubby's original post is unrelated to your questions so its best to start a new post instead of taking over their thread. TIA! -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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markthweb1@...
Kirsten, I hope to find hay that doesn’t require soaking, fingers crossed. It’s been difficult to find suppliers in my area who test their hay so expanding my search to neighboring states. Stubby was getting beet pulp but I didn’t know before joining this group that in needed to be r/s/r. We are doing that now. I am finding this all a bit discouraging because imagining Stubby confined to the small space I can provide for her, which will be complete mud in no time, unable to follow my gelding when he leaves the barn, is depressing. I realize it needs to be done but it seems her quality of life will be diminished just as it will be if I don’t do it.
-- Toni Hayes, West Virginia, 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%20and%20Stubby https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276034 |
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Since Stubby doesn't eat a lot you could put her on 100% Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance cubes, which are guaranteed to be below 10% ESC+starch. They already have all the necessary minerals and quite a bit of beet pulp so they help keep weight on. Only need to add salt, vit E and ground flax.
As for turnout, there's no easy answers. Most people coming here don't have a ready made dry lot but I'm sure you'll figure something out. The most critical thing is to get her ACTH down to mid-teens to low 20s, year-round, with pergolide. That will make her insulin much more manageable. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Toni, there are heaps of ideas about how to create and maintain dry lots, plus keep horses in dry lots happy and contented, in the Horsekeeping sub-group. If you do a search there, I'm sure you will be inspired rather than discouraged.
-- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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Sherry Morse
Toni, As already suggested you can use the timothy balance cubes to provide her roughage as they only require some basic additions as they are balanced to themselves. They are fed at a 3:4 ratio to hay so for a pony who should be 275lbs she'd need just over 4lbs a day and you wouldn't need to feed beet pulp or anything else either. As far as the dry lot. If you want to keep her healthy your options are put her in a dry lot or let her out with a completely sealed muzzled which will allow her to drink but not eat any grass which she does not need. Obviously turn out time is limited with a sealed muzzle (we recommend no more than 4 hours at a time) but that is an option as well.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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