Date
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Vinnie and Invokana update 8/2022
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Thanks Dr Kellon, will do with free choice hay.
I am really hoping our TG come down, and insulin stays below 40. FIngers crossed :) -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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It's fine to add what you did but I wouldn't decrease his hay. Keep his hay free choice 24/7.
Both BCS pictures look OK, although I prefer the bottom one to be honest. Then again, the camera does add as much as half a BCS. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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I am sorry, forgot to note I added Absorb All 1 sccop twice daily as well.
-- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Update: I modified Vinnie's diet a little but to hopefully help TG.
I decreased hay by about 1 hay bag = 5lb for the day. I decreased beet pulp from 4lb to 2.5lb dry weight. I added two feedings of the following: -1/4 flake alfalfa -1lb timothy balance cubes -3cups stabul 1 -2 cups timothy pellets -1 cup Tim alf pellets Upped pergolide to 10.2mg ( I still may go up a little more due to allergic response to flies) I have an updated image https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/245855/3485018?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0 and I think he has put on a little weight that he was losing. I am hoping labs correspond. Will try to get insulin and tg in the next 10 days. Let me know what you think about hos BCS. Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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I have upped Vinnie's beet pulp to a total of 4lb dry weight before rsr in the meantime until I can figure out if he will eat the dry cubes.
So far he has refused two feedings of wet cubes and or pellets (which he used to love many moons ago!) I have added a cup of stabul 1 to each bucket of dry tc balanced cubes (2lb) and I will leave those overnight and maybe he will munch on those. I am replacing the morning feeding with dry TC balance cubes as well. I will keep hay nets for now, because in his protest I don't want his TG to increase more. He has a dental appt in late September and he is due so perhaps that maybe that will help as well. I also have a new hay I am going to test, as my old is running out. I am wondering if ADF/NDF that is a little more digestible could help? -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Yep, just an fyi!
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From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Nancy & Vinnie & Summer via groups.io <k9dcruzn@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 12:00:18 PM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] Vinnie and Invokana update 8/2022 Thanks Leslie, I follow The Traveling Horse Witch and have been reading alot about vagus nerve impingement and I would estimate from the chronic nature of Vinnie’s front end soreness there in the past, that he has some compensation on that front. I do
alot of body work, Masterson, red light etc to help and he has been seeing an acupuncturist. We have tried Chinese herbs too with some success.
But I do want to bring this topic back to the TG elevation and diet conversation because that is what is most critical at the moment for me and Vinnie. Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ Sophie Case History 7/2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Thanks Leslie, I follow The Traveling Horse Witch and have been reading alot about vagus nerve impingement and I would estimate from the chronic nature of Vinnie’s front end soreness there in the past, that he has some compensation on that front. I do alot of body work, Masterson, red light etc to help and he has been seeing an acupuncturist. We have tried Chinese herbs too with some success.
But I do want to bring this topic back to the TG elevation and diet conversation because that is what is most critical at the moment for me and Vinnie. Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Pam,
Just a thought, I didn't know what ffws was and read madbarns description.
It says there is a similar dysfunction in humans.
I am a PT but specialize in osteopathic visceral and neural manipulation.
There are equine equivalent practitioners.
I just had an equine DO work on my mare yesterday.
Sometimes the nerves communicating with the gut are under tension and can cause issues.
Vagus nerve at jugular foramen or any cranial nerve tension, ribs affecting the sympathetic chain of nerves can cause gut issues.
Here is a link to find one near you if interested.
A friend had great success with her mare and right hind end issues and bad heat cycles. Her mare had a slightly twisted ovary causing or caused by vascular and facial tension into the thigh. All better after one visit
From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Pamela Swartz <pamela@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 8:52:33 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] Vinnie and Invokana update 8/2022 Is feeding straight butyric acid for FFWS not advised?
-- Pamela Swartz/Vinda, over the rainbow bridge, -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ Sophie Case History 7/2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Terri, Vinnie doesn't have FFWS, his stool is very normal.
We have a hypothesis that he isn't fermenting fiber well and causing the tryglicerides dump while in canagliflozin to help with insulin. Dr K, I had question too about this because when he is off canagliflozin his TG always go back to normal, even on a rediced diet with much fewer calories, so would that possibly refute the fiber fermentation hypothesis? Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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TERRI JENNINGS
Have you tried Assure Gold? That’s what finally worked for my poopy pants pony this last time he had FFWS.
-- Terri Jennings with Mr. Beefy, Finn, Elliott and Teeny (over the rainbow) Arcata, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Mr.%20Beefy,%20Finn,%20Elliott%20and%20Teeny https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258266 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261227 Joined 2019 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Dr. Kellon,
What does the below hightlighted area mean in the study you just referenced? What is a Crypt, right dorsal colon?
Given these were healthy horses does it apply to what would be found in a horse with hind gut issues?
I have patients with crohns disease who do very well with butyrate supplementation.
Our data indicate that supplementation of micro-encapsulated sodium butyrate to the equine diet did not influence
gut histology (with the exception of a decrease found in the crypts of the RDC)
From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 9:58 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] Vinnie and Invokana update 8/2022 There is no support for it at this time, e.g.
https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-020-02332-4
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
-- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ Sophie Case History 7/2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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There is no support for it at this time, e.g. https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-020-02332-4
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Pamela Swartz
Is feeding straight butyric acid for FFWS not advised?
-- Pamela Swartz/Vinda, over the rainbow bridge, |
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Update, the soaked cubes with 50% Alf cubes and 50% tc balanced cubes with some cocosoya and a sprinkle of stabul 1 were left behind by about 80%. So I am thinking I need to give dry cubes and introduce them slowly.
I am not convinced he is going to go along with the plan :( -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Forgot to say, thank you so much Dr Kellon for all of your guidance. I really don't think Vinnie would be here without you ❤.
I mixed the first bucket of cubes this afternoon and left him munching happily. -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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He is doing exceptionally well..🥰🥰
-- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Yes, sounds like a good plan. I'm assuming he is still doing well (?).
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Ok sounds good.
Here is my plan, I will start decreasing hay by 5lb and add in one meal of cubes and transition the hay to cubes first. Then I will try to transition the TC sr to Stabul 1, because he is eating his beet pulp really well with the TC sr mixed in and once he is eating the cubes well I will add a transition to stabul 1. Does that sound like a good plan? I am guessing this will take longer than two weeks, so still retest in 7 to 10 days recheck tg and insulin? Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Fine on all these supplements with the Absorb-All.
My only concern with the free choice hay is he will fill up with poorly chewed hay and not eat what he needs to eat. I would stop that. Don't worry about the ratio of cubes:hay unless he starts to gain weight. VERY IMPORTANT: Make this change gradually and if he backs off eating what he should be eating that will be a red flag. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Yes, preferably cubes.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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