You're right, Debbie, with the exception of horses that are really out of shape and/or obese. For them, a brisk walk can be as much "work". The heart rate is the best way to tell. You want it over 100.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."

Hi

From what Ive learned caaual movement throughout the day does little to lower insulin. It’s sustained,20-30 minutes, at a higher intensity than a walk or jog that has been shown to lower numbers. The horses are supposed to work …break a sweat and elevated respiration without a break for the 20-30 minutes..


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Debbie Girard   Massachusetts  2022

Ponying horses beside vehicles sounds incredibly risky to me, on one’s property and even more so if off one’s property. With older horses - yikes. I’ve seen people do this and I think it leads to not paying attention to either the horse or the vehicle, or in the worst case scenario, neither.

There are a lot of ways to encourage movement organically. We put their hay out in very small piles - I mean literally handfuls - all over their fenced space. They move all day cleaning it up and then keep going back around after the first pass. While doing this they sometimes get spread way out as a herd and this initiates trotting/cantering/galloping to come back together. A car driving down our lane is often an excuse for them to go off on a herd gallop. I also often open up my riding arena and they will take themselves in there and trot/canter/gallop together.

I think just spreading the hay out all over the area they are in, in very small amounts, is the key to all the movement. They go into foraging mode and you can see the natural behavior emerge.

Billie


--
Billie Hinton
NC
Member since 2010

I have to say, I’m a total walking-with-horse addict. Indy has had a lot of issues over the years that meant she couldn’t be ridden or worked hard, so we got in the habit of walking. Up and down hills, over new tracks, leading in front/beside/behind, incorporating lateral work for strength training … so many things to do and see together. As Kirsten says, if your horses are able to travel fast, you’ve got many options, but even if not, you can add high quality exercise to their regime. I like to allow 5 minutes grazing at the turnaround point of our walks—from Indy’s point of view, it gives the whole  exercise meaning! 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

This group was what got us through all of this. THIS GROUP ALONE

BTW, thanks for that.  We really appreciate hearing it.  We volunteer because this group saved our horses, too, so we understand that statement 100%.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album

Hi Ed,

Please don't forget that horses evolved to be on the move so part of quality of life is species appropriate exercise, not just food.  Even as companions, they have the biological need to be moving.  So even if you can't have them moving 20 miles a day on the range (who can!), getting your boys fast trotting or loping that elevates their heart rate for at least 30 minutes most days will help.  Aim for a sustained heart rate of 110-150 BPM.  It is safe to graze for about an hour after good quality exercise since glucose uptake into the cells does not require insulin immediately after exercise.  I would consider allowing the same amount of grazing time as the exercise time they put in.  If they are sound and you have the property and/or space, have them run around the perimeter of their pasture in a big circle, or on trails/roads nearby using an ATV or vehicle (or a e-bike/bicycle if you can pedal fast enough) to pony (not chase!) them, then follow it with grazing time.  Your horses will learn to love the exercise because of the reward after, and they will feel better getting regular workouts (don't we all!), especially if you leave the property and explore a bit (another quality of life factor).  You can even google what's involved in training for endurance and get your boys on the program, even if you're not riding...and once they're really working at that level you can probably feed them almost anything, anytime.  And yes, a track that actually encourages them to move and 'forage' for their needs (salt, water, food, sand to roll in, etc) helps, too, if it's set up right (although GPS tracking shows that it doesn't get them moving as much as they should be, but it's still usually better than turnout on pasture alone).  Regular trots/canters along the perimeter of the pasture for your exercise program will even help you kill the grass where your track would go!

Exercise is a big commitment that is very hard for all humans (myself included, I'm not criticizing anyone) to fulfill, unless we are wealthy enough to not have to work and can devote our entire day to walking our horses 20 miles, but that's a part of being a responsible horse owner that they don't tell you about.  I admire what you are doing and am headed in that direction myself (less/no riding, more companion/pet), but if you don't ride or can't ride enough to give them the exercise they need, then consider training them to pony beside a vehicle of some sort or to pull a cart.  And get out there and have some adventures together!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album

Maxine, your message went to the next page and I didn't see it until I posted a reply. Thank you for your thoughts. I don't know if there's a simple answer to the quality of life question. Most people keep horses to ride them. Mine are companions and giving them a happy life is my only reason to have them. This is why this is such a challenge for me to accept the lifestyle changes that will compromise their quality of life. One thing I know though, is that the quality of life for my stallion, when he could not get up for three months and when he did he was crouching like a dog balancing on his hind legs with his eyes black with pain, was probably worse than not living at all. For me, this was also some of the most challenging time of my life. When a disaster strikes you see it all: indifference, incompetence, all kinds of frivolous advice including hospitalization, DDFT tenotomy (he had almost no rotation), and euthanasia. This group was what got us through all of this. THIS GROUP ALONE - I just quit listening to everybody else. He recovered. He gallops across the pasture when he sees me now, quicker on his feet than before the founder.

After he recovered, I tested his insulin and it was within the normal range. That gave me hope that I could introduce him to pasture in a grazing muzzle and re-test. The re-test blood sample was taken in the afternoon after he spent the entire day on a lush spring pasture wearing his muzzle, and it also came back within the normal range. I assumed that the grazing muzzle restricted his intake sufficiently to keep his insulin in check, and left him on the pasture for the summer. In the fall I re-tested again - insulin was in the normal range, plus he lost around 350 lb since his founder. So, again that gave me a sense that we're on the right track: insulin normal while on the pasture throughout the summer and getting close to his ideal weight in the process.

I was hoping that we could continue managing like this while monitoring insulin levels a few times a year, but if the answer is no, and this is what I'm hearing from Dr. Kellon and other experienced members of this group, then I'll have to do whatever it takes to not run a considerable risk of another crisis. So a happy life will need to become as happy as is possible all things considered.

Thanks again!
--
Ed P in TX 2022
Atticus's Case History
Atticus's album
Gunner's Case History
Gunner's album

Thank you Dr. Kellon, thank you Sherry! Looks like I'll need to look into putting in a track system by the spring. I'll keep monitoring their insulin levels and do TRH stimulation test in January.

Thanks again!
--
Ed P in TX 2022
Atticus's Case History
Atticus's album
Gunner's Case History
Gunner's album

Ed, thanks for posting your thoughtful question. I was pondering this, and Dr Kellon’s answer about tying quality of life with grass access. There’s no doubt that grazing in company is a huge part of my horses’ quality of life (so is hanging out in company). But “grazing” is the act of moving around and chewing—it doesn’t have to be on grass. Multiple small-mesh haynets on a track work just as well. Or nets dotted around a big dry lot. I do think the nets are important as it mimics taking small bites of grass. And lots of them. 

Movement, friends, chewing—none of these need to be done on pasture. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

I understand your concerns, Ed, but it's a mistake to think quality of life is tied to grazing. Do they enjoy it? Of course - but in this case it is analagous to really enjoying chocolate when you're diabetic. I'm not saying a horse with metabolic syndrome can never graze.  I am saying you are playing with fire when you let them. It may not be the first year but eventually you're going to be dealing with laminitis. The only way to break out of this is to get the horse sound enough to go into a significant work program. When that happens, you can start to allow some grazing. The reason for this is that the sugar and starch in a pasture are always changing. There is  the effect of weather, time of day, and also time of year/dominant species combined with those. We don't know enough to predict accurately when any given pasture will be safe.

Your safest approach is a dry lot or track system. If you have considerable pasture acreage, you can lease it to a farmer to use for hay. If you want to treat your horses, cut fresh grass then let it sit/dry on screens for at least 24 hours before feeding.

P.S. You are NOT a drag on my time!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."

Ed,

It sounds like you may be putting too much blame on adiposity and not enough on grass access. Neither of these horses can safely be allowed grass access at this time. The simple carb levels in grass are a moving target.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."

Hi Kristen,

Thank you for sharing details about your horse. It really helps to know that these rings could potentially be an aftermath of laminitis and not an ongoing problem. Hopefully this will improve overtime for the both of our guys. I sent the hay analysis to Dr. Kellon, and her response was that what I'm doing now (Uckele U-Balance Foundation plus added magnesium) is adequate. So, no changes in the nutrition piece. This is both good and bad. Good because they are getting what they need, but also concerning because this isn't something I can improve and hope to fix the situation. They have been on the Foundation pellets for years now and Atticus foundered while on them. So inadequate nutrition isn't a specific trigger that I can eliminate and have more peace of mind.

With Atticus, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this might just have been that I let him get too fat and didn't properly address his foot distortions. Obesity messed up his metabolism and extra weight combined with gradually progressing distal descent and too much leverage on the hoof walls might have resulted in a crisis. If that's the case, then just keeping him thin and properly trimmed, and monitoring his insulin levels with seasonally changing diet (hay to pasture (spring, summer, fall) back to hay) should be enough to keep him healthy. This, of course, can be just wishful thinking on my part. But other than testing him for PPID in January, I don't know what else I can change. 

With Gunner, it's a newer concern - I only noticed that he started dangerously gaining weight this spring, got him tested, and lo and behold his insulin was high. I immediately put a grazing muzzle on him, and started him on LaminOx and PQ-DC. He started losing weight and by now got to close to his ideal weight, I think. His latest bloodwork wasn't great, but markedly better than in the spring. I will re-test him again in a couple of months (and also do TRH stim) to see if this can help with the diagnosis. With decreased adiposity I'm also hoping that his insulin sensitivity might improve. 

The hay I got (analysis in Atticus's case history) appears low-carb so this should hopefully keep their insulin low. I will, of course, not leave anything to chance, and retest their levels. I do have a question about LaminOx and PQ, but I'll start another thread for that so this one stays more on-topic.

Thank you so, so much for following our journey and helping.

--
Ed P in TX 2022
Atticus's Case History
Atticus's album
Gunner's Case History
Gunner's album

Hi Ed,

Sounds like things are really coming along.

Just want to comment on the growth rings Atticus still has.  My horse has them, too, despite a couple years now of safe insulin, regular trimming and mineral balancing.  He did not have them before his original founder event in 2017, and since then they've never gone away.  They are not as pronounced as Atticus's.  I don't know if it's because of permanent damage to the quality of hoof growth, or if he has insulin fluctuations that haven't shown up in a blood test yet.  He has not had a laminitis flareup for exactly 2 years.  For Atticus, maybe his insulin is really up and down on pasture.  We do know sugars in grass can very widely in a single day.  I also suspect part of it is the mineral balancing piece that you need to implement as well.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album

First of all, a huge thank you to everyone who responded. Dr. Kellon, Sherry, Kristen, Martha, Lesley, thank you! This group is the most caring and supportive place!

I mentioned the grass not to be cavalier about it but just to give a frame of reference to the blood test. I second-guess myself every day with these two, trying to balance the risks with the quality of life. Gunner went from 67.47 insulin in May to 36.42 insulin in September and down one BSC level on the summer pasture 24/7 with a grazing muzzle on 24/7. He is now another BCS level down, a bit "ribby" BCS4. This horse goes stir crazy in confinement. I finally put together his case history. Will re-test insulin, ACTH, and do TRH stim in January. He has no history of lameness of any kind, never had an abscess or any foot distortion, ridges or rings. Still need to upload pictures of his trim. His September radiographs (uploaded to his album) show ossification of collateral cartilages, and I don't know how to help him with that, but nothing else appears to be alarming. I did lower his heels a little to improve the angles.

With Atticus, after his founder in February, he made a very rapid recovery from all but complete immobility to trotting around like nothing happened in less than two weeks. That was after 3 months of not being able to walk and hardly even stand. I slowly re-introduced him to pasture with a grazing muzzle on and he seemed to be doing well: insulin levels within the range, slow but steady weight loss (he lost ~350 lb), no fat pads, smaller and much softer crest, BCS7-8 in February down to BCS4-5 now. His feet are improving but very slowly - he's still growing out thick bloody wedges and the new growth still has some rings, not nearly as pronounced as before but still not smooth. This worries me. If his metabolic profile is okay now, with considerably decreased adiposity (and hopefully increased insulin sensitivity as a result), what would be causing the rings on the new growth? There's a trigger there that has not been eliminated. I rasp down his feet every one to two weeks keeping the wall completely off the ground, other than the heels and heel/bar junctures. The whole foot moved backwards and appears almost abnormally compact. I realize that this is what it probably should have been all along and it was a long toe, the flares and the stretched forward sole/frog that was giving it a much larger appearance before. We still have ways to go with his feet (pictures uploaded in his album). He walks, trots, and gallops comfortably, showing no signs of sensitivity. That is, of course, wearing boots (EasyCare Stratus with Cloud pads) 24/7 since his founder. I still need to update his case history with all of this new info. I fell behind on regular updates and now need to go back and search for dates to reconstruct what happened when. Atticus too will be re-tested in January for ACTH and insulin, plus TRH stim to see if there's any early PPID.

I also got new, low carb, hay for the winter, so I wouldn't have to soak their hay all winter long, and tested both the hay and the pasture (October sample). The test results for both are here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus/EQ153958.pdf. The pasture (at least this time of year) appears low-carb as well. The next step is balance the minerals based on these two tests. They are still eating the pasture during the day (grazing muzzles on), but at night I put out one-inch-mesh feeding nets with this new hay and they mostly work on that.

Thank you again for your comments and support! 
--
Ed P in TX 2022
Atticus's Case History
Atticus's album
Gunner's Case History
Gunner's album

Hi Ed,
I saw that you posted more recent photo’s of Atticus’s trim.  Thank you so much!  It looks to me like you are doing a superb job with getting those feet stacked up how they should be.

Don’t forget the nutrition aspect.  You’ll need that to hold things together.
--

Hi Ed,
Your post caught my attention because stallions are rarely IR.  Maybe his Andalusian genes got the upper hand here.  Your case history mentions that Atticus has winter laminitis every year.  Two things I know of to help that are keeping him warm in cold temps and making sure that the hoof capsule fits the hoof closely.  The most recent radiographs and photos you posted were earlier in the year so they may not be representative, in which case, you should post more.  What I see is a common trim issue that is not particularly easy to fix.  Many of us can vouch for that.  It was suggested that you contact Lavinia for guidance back in June but you felt that you had progressed far enough not to need that.  I would recommend that you ask for her help once she returns from her vacation in early October in an effort to avoid another winter laminitis event.  His splayed hooves and extra weight put a huge strain on the connections between the hoof wall and its innards.  It’s easy to think that because he’s big horse, he needs big feet.  I loved when my 17.2 h Holsteiner had his feet trimmed and he looked to me like he was wearing little kids’ tennis shoes, with a nice snug fit.

Another thing which would help would be to have his hay tested and balanced.  That can make a huge difference in supporting the connections between his hoof wall and hoof.  Although you aren’t treating him as an IR horse, and he may well not be, the trim and the diet are important to any horse, not just those that are IR.
--

Hi Ed,

Atticus's bloodwork looks good.  I don't think you need to change anything. 

I agree with Sherry that Gunner's insulin is a bit high.  Likely he would do better if not on pasture, but you'll want to recheck his insulin once he's on hay and no grass.  Looking forward to seeing Gunner's Case History when you get it posted. 

I don't think either horse needs pergolide this fall.  Both results are within normal for Sept 1.  If you want to be absolutely sure, you can do an ACTH Stim test after December.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album