Date
1 - 8 of 8
Bloodwork
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Kimberly
In my last post, Mouse and Ryn were both eating hay that has been balanced correctly and tests at 6.4% ESC/Starch combined. Starch is .4%, unsoaked. Mouse's insulin was 65.15 and Glucose 92. Ryn's insulin was 61.52 and Glucose 99. Coming down but still not good. We were concerned about the iron in the hay and had it retested and it came back Iron 78 ppm. All done with wet chemistry. We retested this week on another hay that tested at 7.2% ESC and starch combined with starch being 1.5%. This hay has been balanced as well. Mouse's Insulin was 92.73 and Glucose 88 and Ryn's was Insulin 93.56 and Glucose 99. Neither have been on grass for months, diet is very carefully managed, weighed, supplemented according to protocol. Does anyone have experience with Kiger Mustangs that is struggling with this type of insulin fluctuations? They are not on Metformin, Ryn is in work, Mouse is not due to lameness on RF. Any input is greatly appreciated. Kimberly, Mouse and Ryn
-- Kimberly joined 7.17.2018 Virginia https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kimberly%20and%20Mouse https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275222 |
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Hi Kimberly, I know it's frustrating. Both of those hays need to be soaked which I believe you are already doing? If insulin is staying high, then the next step is Metformin or Invokana.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Kimberly
Hi Kirsten, I appreciate the response. I suppose I am starting to realize that just because a hay appears to be "safe" by the numbers, does not mean it is safe for these two horses. Sorry to admit this just dawned on me. I have been focused on the numbers and not putting the two together. For years, I have assumed as long as the hay was under 10% ESC/Starch combined, they could eat it un-soaked, hence could not figure out the "why" of their insulin still being elevated. 6.4% and 7.2% hay should have been very safe in my mind. I have rarely seen hay much lower in our region but I continue to look for it. That is why I could not figure out why their insulin was still elevated if everything else was being done right. My thinking was that this was a process that would take months to resolve when in reality, it likely can be resolved in much less time by soaking "safe" hay for these two. Although this hay tested safe, it is being soaked and we will see in a week or so what their insulin looks like. I hope that my posting this can generate a dialogue that may help someone else. Please correct me if I have still misunderstood this as often I see questions along the same lines about whether or not a hay needs to be soaked. I appreciate the valuable input of this group.. Kimberly
-- Kimberly joined 7.17.2018 Virginia https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kimberly%20and%20Mouse https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275222 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Kimberly,
I am having a similar expereince with feeding non soaked "safe hay" with high insulin. I am soaking hay again. I suppose 1 bale of hay can be low starch and the next bale not low but the average of the 12 bales was considered safe. I do not know how each flake of hay differs from the flake before it in the same bale. Gotta love soaking! My mare had insulin of 25 on metformin and soaked hay, so I do not know if her insulin came down due to diet management or the metformin or both but if the metformin was working, it stopped. Her insulin when up to 79 on the unsoaked hay and metformin. I do not know if it was the unsoaked hay alone that did that or not as I also increased the amount of TC balance cubes she was getting. The TC balance cubes are between 7.7 and 10% starch/ESC which means they are the highest starch item she is eating. I was giving the supplements with TC cubes first thing in morning but now giving the soaked hay to eat for 1 hr, then giving the TC cubes so the first meal is as low starch as possible. I have not retested insulin after restarting to soak the hay but will in 1 week to see if soaking is enough. -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Unfortunately, they are all individuals and what might be "safe" hay for the majority of EMS horses is not going to work for the most sensitive EMS horses. We have quite a few here eating hay with similar ranges (or even lower!) of ESC and starch as yours that still need that hay to be soaked. Some of those horses may have the added complication of PPID (undiagnosed, or diagnosed but not fully controlled) that makes their insulin even harder to manage.
Insulin responds meal-by-meal and can drop within hours of a diet change. Improvement in hoof pain occurs in 36-72 hours, that's how fast it is. There is a possibility it can continue to drop, or insulin sensitivity continue to improve, over several days, weeks or even months after a diet change but the biggest effect is seen very early on. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Hi Lesley,
I wanted to clarify that ESC and starch are two different things. When you add the two together, you get ESC+starch, which needs to stay below 10%, if not lower. If you soak the hay, you can decrease the ESC but starch does not soak out so it’s only the ESC which should change when hay is soaked. We know that the ESC+starch of the Balance Cubes is below 10%. The estimated starch in the cubes is 2%, while the starch in your unsoaked hay is lower. It did go down a bit when you soaked it but I’m not sure why. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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Lesley Bludworth
Thank you Kirsten and Martha.
Yes, I'm hoping she won't be so sensitive once we can start exercising again. -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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To add to Martha's comment, testing a soaked hay can result in different numbers from an unsoaked hay solely because the sample is not, and can never be, the exact same starting material as the unsoaked sample. For example, starch could coincidentally be lower in the second, soaked hay sample.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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