Date
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Magnesium
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Lesley Bludworth
Thank you Nancy.
Does Dr. Kellon recommend a type of magnesium?
I feed mag glycinate. I have read that although mag oxide is high in magnesium it is poorly absorbed.
From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Nancy C <threecatfarm@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2022 5:43:18 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ECIR] Balance Cubes and Magnesium On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 06:14 PM, Lesley Bludworth wrote:
I read the balance between the 2 minerals should be 2.5:1 to 3:1As Lavinia stated the Balance Cubes are balanced by Dr Kellon, so you don't need to add more magnesium. The actual recommendation for ratio from Dr. Kellon are Calcium:Magnesium 2:1. In instances where the blood levels of magnesium are low, recommendations for even tighter ratios have been made. For most horses on the complete diet of Balance Cubes you are fine the way they come. Dr Kellon's courses are an extraordinary learning experience to understand what these recs are, why these recs are made, and how to do balancing yourself. www.drkellon.com -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022 HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Hi Lesley
When checking sources, please also check that they reflect horse physiology. There are times when human physiology crosses over, but not as often as marketing would have you believe. When you state "I have read", pretty please state the source, especially when offering advice to another member. Mag Ox is well-absorbed in horses with well-documented evidence in the NRC Nutrient Requirements of Horses. Other sources can be used (I have done so when blood levels indicated my horse was not absorbing as he should) but they are much more expensive and require much more to get the elemental amount of magnesium. Mag Ox is fine for the majority of horses. Here is but one message from the archives: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/221739 Lots more, using these search words: posterid:58231 "magnesium oxide" Dr Kellon goes into all of this in her courses. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022 HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Hi Lorna,
Gotcha, I read the calcium to mag ratio on the Kentucky Equine Research site and another site that states the NRC recomended amounts are 3:1. The cubes look like they can be anywhere from 2.66:1 to 1.6:1. I have read about magnesium absorption years ago so finding info may be harder A Dr. at Mayo Clinic recommended the mag glycinate over any other form of magnesium and I researched from there. -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Hi, Leslie. You read about Mg absorption in horses? The Mayo Clinic is awesome for people. For horses, whose digestive tracts are very different from humans', I'll take my advice on equine nutrition from an expert in that field, Eleanor Kellon. I don’t mind if you personally choose to use a human magnesium product that requires four times the volume and three times the expense of MagOx. But you really must support your claims about its superiority for horses compared to MagOx. |
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Nancy and Cass took the words out of my mouth,but just wanted to go one step further . As well as differentiating between research done with horses as opposed to humans,we also need to consider the differences PPID/IR
horses can present compared to non - PPID/IR horses,with respect to,for example, supplementation requirements. More fun. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario 2002 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Ladies, I appreciate you taking the time to dialog and teach.
You are telling me that there is specific research in horses, EMS horses, that says adding magnesium is beneficial to EMS horses? Or, is this is the experience of people in this group? Science based evidence vs clinical evidence? Below is what the Merck Veterinary Manual says about magnesium and EMS. From Merck Vetrinary Manual, updated in 2022. "In humans, there is a beneficial effect of Mg supplementation on insulin sensitivity. Some horses with equine metabolic syndrome (EMS) have been found to have substantially lower intracellular Mg concentrations than non-EMS horses, and supplementation has been suggested. However, one randomized placebo-controlled study showed no difference in either insulin sensitivity or morphometric variables in horses supplemented with Mg (8.8 g/day) and chromium" I add supplemental magnesium because it makes sense to me to do so, not because I have a scientific study saying it is helpful, so I'm on board either way. -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Hi Lesley,
Thanks for quoting Merck(good example),but for the purposes of this discussion when I read it I have questions...where can I find the one randomized study(want to know time of year,age of horse,lab work,etc)? ....and what were the Ca:P:Mg after mg. was added? We know that chromium used to be thought necessary,but is not now,so I'm not interested in it. Not exactly black and white. I'm open to correction from mods. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario 2002 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Yes me too, more questions.
no idea what the study actually studied or the duration of supplementation (chronic depletion seems like it would take time to fully reverse in organ nd neural tissue) but one would "think" its a valid statement. I looked at the Dr Harrington et all information on mag oxide absorption being 70% but could not look at the study itself. -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Hi Lesley --
This original post got highjacked. Again. I apologize, Cris. I changed the topic. I have also lost site of what the "me too, more questions" is/are. But here is an admitted avalanche of background for your reading pleasure, that will hopefully answer what it is you are trying to discern, especially if you are going to continue to offer advice here. Dr Kellon was one of the first to recognize the clinical effect magnesium can have on equines. Twenty years ago, my first intro to Dr Kellon was a discussion post she had started on a now defunct equine forum about magnesium and the impact on laminitic horses. She discusses it here in the 2003 paper with Johnson on Metabolic Syndrome. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/4%20Insulin%20Resistance/KELLON%20ON%20METABOLIC%20SYNDROME%20TREATMENT.pdf She has discussed Mag in almost every thing I ever seen her write about metabolic syndrome. You can hear her discuss it live and in person in the films https://www.ecirhorse.org/video.php Tons of discussion in the archives -- 20 years in fact: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C0%2C0&q=posterid%3A58231++%2Bmagnesium+%2Binsulin Since I think we are still hung up on horse/human, I would highly recommend you read or read again, this one from 2021 (download free): ECIR 2021 Proceedings Kellon Comparative Human and Equine Metabolic SyndromeSee also The Roles of Minerals in Insulin Sensitivity. Download free here https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2013.php More in the files https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/3.%20Minerals/Magnesium Yes, you will have to buy most of the studies sited to read the full thing. Studies are shared in full here when we can, however the work is fully reviewed by Dr Kellon and Dr Gustafson. So far, unless I missed it, no good studies on EMS/IR and magnesium in the equine. In 2000 Dr Kellon wrote about her work and the obvious results with Henry Hemering. She references this in the 2021 Comparative proceeding. I highly recommend a read. NRC Nutrient Requirements of Horse goes in depth siting the studies of Mag Ox and equine absorption. You can buy that on many book sources. https://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9780309102124 -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022 HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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More....
Here's the study referenced in the Merck blurb: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21496075/ Full text is available for $$. What sticks out in just the abstract is, they were feeding oats. Diet in truly diagnosed IR equines is the number one issue to be addressed. I'll stick my neck out to say that mag is not going to override oats in a metabolic equine. No indication these were diagnosed as EMS or IR, but the devil is in the details, which are in the full .pdf. I am beyond certain that Dr. Kellon has seen this study. I have a lot more I could say about the equine community and their appreciation of mag, but I'll leave it for another day. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022 HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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Lesley Bludworth
Ha! Thank you for that Nancy.
Oats and no change, go figure. I've also heard it the other way around, God is in the details ;) -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Lesley (and other interested parties),
If you know a student, researcher or professor at a university, they have access to almost all research articles for free online, through their library. That's one way to get access if you want to read the studies yourself. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Lesley Bludworth
Thank you Kirsten,
That is good to know! I didnt think it would apply to Veterinary research. -- Lesley Bludworth Phoenix, AZ 7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 |
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Yes, they can access any field of research.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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