Date
1 - 20 of 27
New Member - Amanda and Crimson
Ok, thank you. He's already getting salt and vitamin E, so we should be good there.
-- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album Crimson's Case History |
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Amanda,
It could also just be the normal up and down you see with these horses as they are recovering. For example, they may feel comfortable one day and do too much moving around then pay for it after that. The only way to know for sure if a food item is an issue is to check insulin. If you go to the TC (Ontario Dehy) Balance Cubes you also need to add salt and vitamin E. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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4 oz is fine.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Well, I would say Crimson is slightly worse three days in on the Stabul 1 that he was the two days prior (Still better than a week ago). This could be because the ground is hardening back up after rain or it could be the feed. I cut the Stabul 1 in half the last two days (4.5 lbs), but likely will remove it completely for a few days and see if things start improving again.
My next plan is to try 15 lbs TC balance cubes, 1 lb flax, and add in cocosoya oil. Recommendations on amount of oil to feed? Should I go with the 4oz? Thank you all! -- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album Crimson's Case History |
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Once you settle on a diet that works for his weight, have his bloodwork redone so you can see if insulin is in a safe range, and ACTH is normal.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Thanks Dr. Kellon, I really appreciate the response.
In the past 3 months leading up to the laminitis episode very little food was being wasted. With the new diet, I see he is eating all the portion I feed at night, but there is some waste of the rations the barn feeds (I board). His meals are three equal portions fed at 8 AM, 3PM , and sometime between 5 and 8 PM. I feed the last feeding and he is always still working on the feed from 3PM when I feed. They are split this way to avoid spoilage and I found he eats better with less food in front of him and tends to get "overwhelmed" if there is too much presented at once. I've spent a ton of time finding the right degree of soupiness for him and am pretty confident we're at the right texture currently. I have been experimenting a bit with adding more or less water for the cubes since that's a new feed for us but so far it seems to be coming out close the right consistency. I have also added the 1lb of flax already, that was included in the calorie count. I have not added cocosoya. Would that be a safer way to add additional calories than the Stabil 1 feed? I liked the Stabul 1 because of the flavoring aspect (Crimson seems to agree) but it's not worth it if that compromises his comfort level. All the best, -- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album Crimson's Case History |
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Hi Amanda,
It sounds like some of his calories are being wasted, which makes it difficult to determine what his actual needs are. Have you experimented with different degrees of soupiness? If chewing is his issue, which is sounds like it's at least part of his issue, he may do better with meals that are soup consistency. Soaked feed does "spoil" to varying extent over a day depending on the environment so that's a real challenge too. It doesn't sound like you will have an issue with too much weight gain! I want to be clear I'm not trying to discourage you out of concern for weight gain; just that his actual calorie needs might not be as high as you think and apparently part of the reason for that is waste. You can also safely feed him up to 1 lb/day of ground flax, which will significantly boost his calories without affecting insulin, and up to 4 oz/day of CocoSoya, which is highly palatable. Keeping his ACTH normal is going to be your most important goal because his breeding does not at all predispose him to IR and laminitis. That's coming from the PPID. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Hi Again Dr. Kellon,
It does seem like a ton of feed, I agree. And I do know Feedxl is not a guarantee in terms of accuracy or just matching real life, but Crimson was barely maintaining this weight on his previous diet which was 33.2 MCal (calories mainly from hay pellets and TC senior gold). FeedXL has his requirements at 23.9 MCal/ day and this new ration is only 24 MCal. So I'm fully expecting weight loss just given the difference in calories but perhaps his body will utilize the feed better? I'm just worried he's going to drop weight like crazy as the evenings get cooler. We worked really hard to get him to this condition and I am terrified that if he looses it we won't get it back.
With that being said another "calorie requirement" calculator put his needs at 18.2 Mcal so maybe that will be more accurate once the PPID is controlled? My gut says to adjust down from here if weight gain becomes a problem rather than to try and adjust up if I notice weight loss, but I'd love to hear your opinion on which is the better route to take. I'll add as well that all his feed is soaked, and it takes him all day to eat most of it, IE there is never a time he does not have feed in front of him. He cannot chew dried cubes or pellets or hay. He does waste some of the feed, either spilling it onto the matted floor where it apparently becomes inedible or simply by leaving it in his feed pan until the next day at which point I toss it. This had nearly ceased until the laminitis episode (we were getting an empty feed pan at each feeding but still losing a small amount the the floor). I'll take a look at adding in Absorb-all as well. All the best, Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album Crimson's Case History |
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Amanda,
There is no doubt that older horses, especially older Tbs, not to mention with PPID, are difficult to keep weight on but that amount of food sounds excessive. I wouldn't want him much heavier than he is in your November photos, maybe 20 pounds tops. For best digestion and absorption, all meals should be wet. You can also improve digestion with Absorb-All https://www.uckele.com/aloe-vera-pellets-4-3lb.html . Also keep dry cubes available 24/7 in a separate container, for munching. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Thank you Kristen! I'll monitor closely to ensure we keep improving now that the stabul 1 is introduced. It was a hit last night so hopefully that means he'll eat a larger portion of feed in general. I use feedxl to calculate feed requirements and currently that looks like 15lbs of cubes and 9 lbs of Stabul 1. If I can I'll increase the cubes and decrease the stabul 1 over the next few weeks. To date the max volume Crimson has been willing to eat works out to about 18lbs of feed so I'll be curious to see how he did with this new ration when I get out to the barn this afternoon.
-- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album Crimson's Case History |
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I should add that some horses are more sensitive to Stabul 1 than others. Crimson, being a TB cross with no ongoing history of laminitis, may not be as sensitive as long as his PPID is well controlled with pergolide. I can't advise on a 'safe' amount to feed, other than to say feed the minimum you need to get the job done.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Amanda, please note that when feeding the balance cubes, you only feed 75% as much by weight compared to hay. They are much higher in calories than hay because of the beet pulp in them. So you might be closer to your target than you think.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Both HA and chondroitin are safe.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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OK! Case History and photos are added. There has been a trim since the latest photos and once the mud dries up enough to get new photos I will.
-- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album Crimson's Case History |
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Emma & Tater
Actually I see in this thread that I should search for topics. I will do that :)
-- Emma + Tater, probable EMS / IR joined 10/26/22 Colorado Photo Album Case History |
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Emma & Tater
Hi Dr Kellon, I am very interested in which joint supplements are safe and effective for IR horses. I see that glucosamine and MSM are not safe for IR horses. Do you recommend HA or other options?
-- Emma + Tater, probable EMS / IR joined 10/26/22 Colorado Photo Album Case History |
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The balance cubes went over quite well day 1 but 18lbs (about his max consumption) and the 1 lb of flax is only 68% of his required calories. Keep in mind we were feeding over 100% to maintain weight so this is still a huge drop in caloric intake. I have Satbul 1 coming to fill the gap. Is there a max safe amount of that feed?
The other good news is he does seem to be improving comfort wise I have the day off (thank you veterans for your service!) So should be able to complete the case history and get all the photos uploaded today. -- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album |
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Chris,
The Mt Sunrise are not tested and not guaranteed below 10%. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Chris Pennbo
The Balance Cubes soak pretty quickly but not immediately. Maybe 15 min to mostly soft? However if you totally COVERED them with water your horse might eat slow enough for them to soak well. Also Mountain Sunrise has a timothy pellet too.
-- -Chris May, 2019 Big Bear Lake, California https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Monte https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95892 |
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Thank you again.
I will grab a bag of timothy balance cubes and see if they soak up fast/well enough for him to eat. I only feed one of his three meals and the barn staff just empties a bag of dry ingredients and a jug of water into a feed pan when they feed so typically we need something that soaks relatively quickly. Mountain sunrise also has a Bermuda plus pellet which they say is designed for the cushings horse. I'll do some comparing on that as well. Thank you for the tips on tasty additives as well. Stabul makes a fenugreek pellet that we've tried with success in the past. Is the A to Z cookie going to be ok to hide pergolide in or were you thinking the Stabul 1 might be the carrier?. -- Amanda C in Southern California, Joined 2022 Crimson's Album |
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