Date
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just really confused
I apologize, but I'm getting more and more confused. Just when I think I have all the facts and data organized and go to order the nutrients, I get all turned around. I got my hay analysis and Dr. Kellon recommended some protein, minerals and vitamins. My horse currently gets around 10 lbs of hay daily fed in his stall, then has round bale hay outside at liberty 7am-3pm. The only grain he gets is approximately 1/4 cup strategy twice a day, which I'd like to replace. He's on Prascend 1.5mg/day. His EMS Calculation from 8/16/22 was: G/I ratio = 2.63, RISQI Calculation = 0.16, MIRG Calculation =10. The EMS Calculation from 8/16/21 was G/I ratio = 1.84, RISQI = 0.13, MIRG Calculation = 10. The sugar/starch content of the hay analysis was less than 10%, so soaking is not necessary for that reason, but is he IR?
I went to look at the Safe Feeds List to find an alternative to the Strategy and then saw when reading other messages, that if I use the TC Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes, they are already mineral balanced. So why would I be buying minerals, vitamins, and protein, and measuring them, making daily supplement baggies, etc, if I could just use the balance cubes? Or rinsing, soaking and rinsing beet pulp? So "safe feeds" are instead of hay? And "ration balancers" are to be added to the hay instead of the individual minerals, vitamins, and protein? Or added to the safe feeds? And the term "carrier" is just something to add the extras to so that they will stick?
And either way, I should add Vitamin E, flax, magnesium? And for my horse, Phyto-Quench instead of Equioxx.
I hope I'm getting closer to getting this sorted out, but it doesn't feel that way.
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
I went to look at the Safe Feeds List to find an alternative to the Strategy and then saw when reading other messages, that if I use the TC Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes, they are already mineral balanced. So why would I be buying minerals, vitamins, and protein, and measuring them, making daily supplement baggies, etc, if I could just use the balance cubes? Or rinsing, soaking and rinsing beet pulp? So "safe feeds" are instead of hay? And "ration balancers" are to be added to the hay instead of the individual minerals, vitamins, and protein? Or added to the safe feeds? And the term "carrier" is just something to add the extras to so that they will stick?
And either way, I should add Vitamin E, flax, magnesium? And for my horse, Phyto-Quench instead of Equioxx.
I hope I'm getting closer to getting this sorted out, but it doesn't feel that way.
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Patty,
The Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes are balanced to themselves. IF they are the only thing the horse is eating, all you need to add are salt, flax and vit E for a totally balanced diet. They are NOT designed to be used as a balancer to get the rest of the diet squared away. IF they are only a portion of the diet, you still need to feed the correct minerals to account for the rest of what the horse is eating - in this case, you need to feed minerals for the 10lbs of stall hay plus whatever hay Inky eats from the round bale. You can substitute some cubes for the Strategy as a carrier if you want. You can also use some Stabul 1 as a carrier.
A carrier is a small amount of a product used to mix the supplements into so the animal will readily consume them. You use them in the smallest amount needed to get the job done.
You rinse/soak/rinse beet pulp to clean off (rinse) the dirt and iron that clings to it and to reduce the unknown amount of sugar (soak) it may contain. Final rinse then washes away any remaining dirt/sugar from the soak cycle. Yes, beet pulp is labor intensive, unfortunately. If you are only using it as a safe carrier for supplements, you may be able to substitute the Timothy Balance cubes or Stabul 1 to make things easier.
Safe Feeds are foods that can be used to replace hay or as carriers for supplements. Ration balancer products are meant to supply the minerals that are needed to insure the horse receives at least the minimum daily requirements but how well a pre-packaged product will actually balance your diet is an unknown until you have an analysis of both the hay and the product to see whether they are a good fit or not.
You always need to add vit E and omega 3 (flax) to virtually all diets unless the horse is on quality pasture, as these are lost when hay is cured. Salt is deficient across the board, so all horses should be provided with white salt.
Magnesium is often deficient in hay (but not always), so we recommend supplementing until you have an analysis and know for sure whether it is needed or not.
Yes, Phytoquench was suggested as a substitute for the Equioxx in your case.
HTH.
Hang in there, this does get easier with time.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR
The Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes are balanced to themselves. IF they are the only thing the horse is eating, all you need to add are salt, flax and vit E for a totally balanced diet. They are NOT designed to be used as a balancer to get the rest of the diet squared away. IF they are only a portion of the diet, you still need to feed the correct minerals to account for the rest of what the horse is eating - in this case, you need to feed minerals for the 10lbs of stall hay plus whatever hay Inky eats from the round bale. You can substitute some cubes for the Strategy as a carrier if you want. You can also use some Stabul 1 as a carrier.
A carrier is a small amount of a product used to mix the supplements into so the animal will readily consume them. You use them in the smallest amount needed to get the job done.
You rinse/soak/rinse beet pulp to clean off (rinse) the dirt and iron that clings to it and to reduce the unknown amount of sugar (soak) it may contain. Final rinse then washes away any remaining dirt/sugar from the soak cycle. Yes, beet pulp is labor intensive, unfortunately. If you are only using it as a safe carrier for supplements, you may be able to substitute the Timothy Balance cubes or Stabul 1 to make things easier.
Safe Feeds are foods that can be used to replace hay or as carriers for supplements. Ration balancer products are meant to supply the minerals that are needed to insure the horse receives at least the minimum daily requirements but how well a pre-packaged product will actually balance your diet is an unknown until you have an analysis of both the hay and the product to see whether they are a good fit or not.
You always need to add vit E and omega 3 (flax) to virtually all diets unless the horse is on quality pasture, as these are lost when hay is cured. Salt is deficient across the board, so all horses should be provided with white salt.
Magnesium is often deficient in hay (but not always), so we recommend supplementing until you have an analysis and know for sure whether it is needed or not.
Yes, Phytoquench was suggested as a substitute for the Equioxx in your case.
HTH.
Hang in there, this does get easier with time.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR
Trisha DePietro
Hi Patty. Lavinia explained everything....but I just want you to know, my most confusing times was right before a major breakthrough in understanding. This stuff is not easy to always assimilate and understand.
Being confused is sort of a given state of mind for a while and then it all falls into place for you and your horse.
Please hang in there, Inky needs you. And he's lucky to have you.
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos
Hope's Photos
Primary Responder
Being confused is sort of a given state of mind for a while and then it all falls into place for you and your horse.
Please hang in there, Inky needs you. And he's lucky to have you.
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos
Hope's Photos
Primary Responder
Lesley Bludworth
Patty,
I do not know if your horse is IR or not based on your findings with the glucose and insulin.
For feed tho, as an example, with my very clearly IR horse,
I use the 1 lb soaked TC cubes to deliver the minerals that balance the hay i feed. 2 x a day.
The TC balance cubes are a safer vitamin carrier for my horse and she loves the TC cubes.
I'm not messing with beet pulp yet but will start soon.
My hay is below 8% starch + ESC but I still soak it as my horse's insulin went way up when I stopped soaking it.
--
Lesley Bludworth
Phoenix, AZ 7/2022
Sophie TWH mare IR/EMS, PPID?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749
I do not know if your horse is IR or not based on your findings with the glucose and insulin.
For feed tho, as an example, with my very clearly IR horse,
I use the 1 lb soaked TC cubes to deliver the minerals that balance the hay i feed. 2 x a day.
The TC balance cubes are a safer vitamin carrier for my horse and she loves the TC cubes.
I'm not messing with beet pulp yet but will start soon.
My hay is below 8% starch + ESC but I still soak it as my horse's insulin went way up when I stopped soaking it.
--
Lesley Bludworth
Phoenix, AZ 7/2022
Sophie TWH mare IR/EMS, PPID?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749
Things are still a bit messy..... When Dr. Kellon analyzed Inky's diet, the hay analysis showed insufficient protein, minerals and calories. I've purchased the recommended supplements but the main difficulty is the protein. It is a powdered plant protein, and he needs approximately 1/2 to 1/3 cup a day, divided into two servings (I think). The flavor recommended is banana, and he will not touch it. He seems to be OK with the vitamin/minerals (U-VM) and the Vitamin E (liquid U Vitamin E), salt is ok, and flax is so-so. He doesn't like the powdery texture.
I've been using RSR beet pulp shreds as a carrier, with an enticing herbal tea to dilute and as long as the banana bread protein isn't in there, he will eat it. Still experimenting with use of herbal tea vs plain, and how mushy to make the beet pulp.
Can I replace some of his less-than-nutritious hay with TC Balance Cubes - would that suffice to provide him with the protein he needs? His analysis revealed ~ 5.8% crude protein from his grass hay. Or if I introduce more alfalfa hay? Or add a ration balancer to increase the protein?
I am looking at other protein supplement products. This is what i purchased The Plant Protein, which he refuses, and this was an alternative Dr. Kellon suggested, which I haven't tried yet Whey Protein.
According to an ECIR article regarding equine crude protein requirements CRUDE PROTEIN REQUIREMENTS, the horse needs 656g protein/day and 16.4Mcal/day. Inky's hay DE (Digestible Energy) = 0.88 Mcal/lb dry matter - 0.91 Mcal/lb dry matter from his in stall hay and at liberty round bale, with an estimated 15-18 lbs hay per day.
So, as Dr. Kellon has indicated, he is deficient, and the protein deficiency is for certain amino acids.
I'm trying to see what makes the most sense - using TC balance cubes? Alfalfa hay? Protein supplement which he's not eating? Ration balancer?
Does adding beet pulp or maybe Stabul-1 offer protein supplementation?
I think from what Lavinia said 11/9/22 that the timothy balance cubes are not designed to be used as a balancer to get the rest of the diet squared away. So only if I use them as the sole feed would this eliminate the need to add protein, correct?
Thank you for your help!
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
I've been using RSR beet pulp shreds as a carrier, with an enticing herbal tea to dilute and as long as the banana bread protein isn't in there, he will eat it. Still experimenting with use of herbal tea vs plain, and how mushy to make the beet pulp.
Can I replace some of his less-than-nutritious hay with TC Balance Cubes - would that suffice to provide him with the protein he needs? His analysis revealed ~ 5.8% crude protein from his grass hay. Or if I introduce more alfalfa hay? Or add a ration balancer to increase the protein?
I am looking at other protein supplement products. This is what i purchased The Plant Protein, which he refuses, and this was an alternative Dr. Kellon suggested, which I haven't tried yet Whey Protein.
According to an ECIR article regarding equine crude protein requirements CRUDE PROTEIN REQUIREMENTS, the horse needs 656g protein/day and 16.4Mcal/day. Inky's hay DE (Digestible Energy) = 0.88 Mcal/lb dry matter - 0.91 Mcal/lb dry matter from his in stall hay and at liberty round bale, with an estimated 15-18 lbs hay per day.
So, as Dr. Kellon has indicated, he is deficient, and the protein deficiency is for certain amino acids.
I'm trying to see what makes the most sense - using TC balance cubes? Alfalfa hay? Protein supplement which he's not eating? Ration balancer?
Does adding beet pulp or maybe Stabul-1 offer protein supplementation?
I think from what Lavinia said 11/9/22 that the timothy balance cubes are not designed to be used as a balancer to get the rest of the diet squared away. So only if I use them as the sole feed would this eliminate the need to add protein, correct?
Thank you for your help!
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
Hi Patty,
The timothy balance cubes will provide adequate protein if fed as the complete diet.
--
The timothy balance cubes will provide adequate protein if fed as the complete diet.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo
Martha and Logo
I am addressing “he doesn’t like the powdery texture”. I successfully reconstitute peppermint Stabul 1 as the carrier for the powdery stuff which is stirred into the moist, fluffy stuff-voila!
Tuck is especially in need of this because he has RAO (recurrent airway obstruction) related to multiple allergies, many of them airborne. Wards off choke, too, to serve up supplements in thoroughly moistened pellets. Be cognizant of calories though; Stabul 1 contains 1150 kcal
per pound! The owner of the company related this to me when I called with a few questions.
Incidentally, Tuck is also in SE WI!
--
*Kim F
* WI
2021
Tuck is especially in need of this because he has RAO (recurrent airway obstruction) related to multiple allergies, many of them airborne. Wards off choke, too, to serve up supplements in thoroughly moistened pellets. Be cognizant of calories though; Stabul 1 contains 1150 kcal
per pound! The owner of the company related this to me when I called with a few questions.
Incidentally, Tuck is also in SE WI!
--
*Kim F
* WI
2021
Hi, Patty.
Do you know how many grams of CP do you need to add?
Unflavored whey protein isolate won't affect your other balancing, but it is powdery and has a milky smell. I used NOW Foods unflavored. One pound is about $30 if you want to try it.
For any other source, you really need to get back in touch with Dr Kellon to check if they are appropriate for Inky. My horses really like split peas, also called field peas, 22% CP. If you buy from the feed store, instead of the grocery store, they are a bit less expensive.
Your other ideas will require changes to your balancing, so you need to check their impact with Dr Kellon. Stabul1 is around 15-17% CP and might work for you. A bit more than a pound daily supplies roughly 82 grams of CP.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder
Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos
Do you know how many grams of CP do you need to add?
Unflavored whey protein isolate won't affect your other balancing, but it is powdery and has a milky smell. I used NOW Foods unflavored. One pound is about $30 if you want to try it.
For any other source, you really need to get back in touch with Dr Kellon to check if they are appropriate for Inky. My horses really like split peas, also called field peas, 22% CP. If you buy from the feed store, instead of the grocery store, they are a bit less expensive.
Your other ideas will require changes to your balancing, so you need to check their impact with Dr Kellon. Stabul1 is around 15-17% CP and might work for you. A bit more than a pound daily supplies roughly 82 grams of CP.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder
Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos
Thank you Kim, nice to know there is a fellow ECIR-er in SE WI. I tried the sample of peppermint Stabul 1 diluted, then added a small amount of his disliked protein supplement, and he did take it. I'll need to order more to try it again. Wish they had 20 lb bags!
Regarding your comment that Stabul 1 is 1150 kcal/lb, that makes me question how to "count" it? What is the ratio for Stabul 1 vs hay with regards to how much to feed?
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
Regarding your comment that Stabul 1 is 1150 kcal/lb, that makes me question how to "count" it? What is the ratio for Stabul 1 vs hay with regards to how much to feed?
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
Hello Cass -
I think calculating the CP is one place I'm getting confused. According to his analysis, the DE for his hay is 2 Mcal/kg and so he would need 8 kg to get the recommended 16.4 Mcal/day. That translates to 17 lbs of hay, which according to his analysis would only provide 447g of CP, which is only 68% of the total 656g recommended daily. To get the full 656g protein from his current hay, he'd need to eat about 25 lbs daily, and then he'd exceed the calorie recommendation.
I'm still experimenting with what parts of this he likes. Trying to find a carrier for the banana flavored protein supplement is currently the biggest problem. That's why I was asking about a different plan.
For those who use TC Balance Cubes or Stabul 1 in place of hay, is this cost prohibitive?
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019
I think calculating the CP is one place I'm getting confused. According to his analysis, the DE for his hay is 2 Mcal/kg and so he would need 8 kg to get the recommended 16.4 Mcal/day. That translates to 17 lbs of hay, which according to his analysis would only provide 447g of CP, which is only 68% of the total 656g recommended daily. To get the full 656g protein from his current hay, he'd need to eat about 25 lbs daily, and then he'd exceed the calorie recommendation.
I'm still experimenting with what parts of this he likes. Trying to find a carrier for the banana flavored protein supplement is currently the biggest problem. That's why I was asking about a different plan.
For those who use TC Balance Cubes or Stabul 1 in place of hay, is this cost prohibitive?
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019