Hi, Lesley, 
Lots of reading on feeding for colder temperature.
 https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2020/12/22/feeding-in-winter/
https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2022/11/28/the-finer-points-of-winter-feeding/

Forage, cubes, and beet pulp are all appropriate feeds to increase for IR horses when temperatures drop. The transit time through the equine digestive tract is a long one (36-50+ hours). So, yes, cubes eaten 6-8 hours earlier are still being fermented by microbial populations in the intestines. The overall process of staying warm requires more calories - calories to be burned by muscles in movement using glucose that is probably absorbed early in the digestive tract, and calories extracted further along in the intestinal tract through fermentation. 

CP is ECIR's common abbreviation for compounded pergolide, which needs to be stored within a certain temperature range and protected from high humidity.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

Thank you Cass.
Question.
When you say forage, you mean hay only, not beet pulp?
She has hay in a net over night and gets soaked cubes at 8pm.... the cubes would be available for heat production 6 to 8 hrs later??
Good to know about the increased activity in the morning being about overnight food and Temps.
She is pretty sedate in the morning.
What is CP? You said good for storing CP safely.
Thank you!
--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ   7/2022
Sophie TWH mare IR/EMS, PPID?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749

Hello. Thank you for the responses.

I have learned over the years a few important hacks in keeping Foster warm and dry as the temperatures go down at night.. Again, this starts as early as August when the night gets 51 degrees. It used to be for me if you say cold nights, I would think like 35 degrees. But I have learned the hard way that this is wrong. I will mention a few important points here, then post a more full description on the Horskeeping group message board. If you haven’t gone there yet, it is easy, just look at the Subgroups section from this site.

I feel it is important that we don’t beat ourselves up for things we didn’t know or do in the past. We can only do the best we can from this day forward right?. Thanks to this group and input from it’s members, so many horses are alive and thriving with these health conditions now.

I am not wealthy. I have found inexpensive ways to deal with dressing Foster up for colder weather. It is hard because he is not at home, but at a ranch elsewhere. But like almost everyone that comes here, I love him to the moon and back, and I would do anything I can to make his life easier and more comfortable. He has been dealt a tough hand being insulin resistant and having Cushings since I adopted him at age 8. He is 29 now, and he is like a son to me. The things I do and buy to keep him warm and dry are always way less expensive than say the cost of vet visits for laminitis, metal shoes, etc. Plus I am lucky he is a smaller American Shetland, like 450 lbs.

He has always had mostly soreness when he gets it on his front feet. But when the temperatures get 51 degrees or lower, I have to put boots and warm socks on his back feet as well overnight. Once I started boots and socks on his back feet too, he stopped walking all weird in the rear, like he had sore, tight muscles all the time. For him, his back feet and lower legs just get cold when temps go down in the low 50 degree level..

He does have a very thick coat that I must shave at least 4 times a year. Even with that thick coat, he gets cold at night. We can’t rely on that long coat to keep his feet and legs warm, it just doesn’t at his ageor with his health conditions. It is about circulation. I read here that this is almost always a problem after they have laminitis episodes throughout their lives. Foster started at 8 years old. I wish I would have known this earlier, I would have kept his feet and legs warmer so much sooner. But we can just go forward, right.

First, very importantly, I realized I could not rely on the weather forecasts for my overnight temperatures. Where my pony is boarded, it can actually be a full 9-10 degrees colder than the temperatures listed on my weather forecast feature on my phone for the city he is in. I found this out when a friend was going to the ranch at 5am every morning before work, and she told me the actual temperature her car was giving her. I was shocked. This matters a lot determining how to dress him for warmth at night. Where I live here on the California coast, last week we were getting temperatures of 38 degrees overnight, and 78 degrees during the day. It is crazy. And we fluctuate with his clothing almost daily until like December when it regularly gets cold at night.

I ordered a digital thermostat and mounted it in his stall. It was only like $30, and it runs on batteries. You just have to reset it every night by pushing a button. This was a game changer. Like I said, actual temperatures were almost 10 degrees colder than the weather app on my phone or computer.

I will put my learned hacks for keeping Foster warm at night, starting as early as August for him about boots, socks, gators, blankets, shavings, etc. on the Horsekeeping subgroup message board as not to go against any posting rules. But these all have proven to be incredibly important in keeping Foster’s feet feeling good and keeping him out of trouble luckily. Of course diet, trim, meds, etc. have to be dialed in as well. If my hacks could help one other horse, that would be awesome. As I said, it has been a 21 year learning experience for me, and every year I learn more luckily.

Someone once made the comment to me that they don’t blanket their horse in rain or cold, because they want their horse “to know it was a horse.” I thought this was one of the stupidest things I ever heard. Why would you want your horse to be cold and wet, if there was something you could do about it? I mean we all go home to our warm house with jackets and blankets. All 3 of my senior horses happily enjoy their blankets when it is cold and wet. It can be a lot of work, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Thank you for being here. Love to all the horse lovers here and their loved horses and ponies.

--
Cris Bliss  California 2018

Hi, Lesley.
Horses stay warm from movement and from digesting fiber, not from glucose alone. That is why we increase forage in anticipation of cold temperature. That way, the forage has a chance to get through the stomach and into the part of the digestive system where digesting fiber can generate heat. I like to get that process going at the latest with the afternoon feed so that as temperatures drop into the night, heat generation is primed. And since the coldest temps tend to occur right around sunrise, I also add extra forage to the overnight ration. If you've taken the NRCPlus class, you can calculate an estimate of the additional feed needed. More in this post from Sherry. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/260977

Determining the exact amount of extra forage in a mild climate doesn't need to be an elaborate calculation if your mare's BCS is reasonable and if temperatures aren't diving below the hard freeze threshold (around 28℉). I work with a pound or two extra hay and then let my horse tell me first thing the next morning if it was adequate. Ravenous appetite and a lot of activity tells me it wasn't enough. If daytime temperatures remain low and never get above 45-50℉, I add hay for that too.

I highly recommend a cheap digital thermometer that captures high and low temperatures as a way of checking actual temperature at your barn.My barn temperatures are consistently 5℉ colder than micro-forecasts for my location. That means that my horses are experiencing colder temps for longer than forecast by  my phone weather app. Here's one such product (also excellent for storing CP safely!): https://buythermopro.com/product/tp53/

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

I blanket if the night time temp is in the 40s but wondering if the boots, wool socks and wraps are enough even in the 40s so that she has to use some glucose to stay warm... the little exercise she gets. Or is night time heat generated mostly from fermentation?
I think being even slightly dehydrated can increase sensitivity to the cold and can affect gut motility, at least in humans ;)
I have been told cold horses don't drink cold water, so it may be easier for them to become dehydrated in the cold months.
Sophie only gets wet soaked hay and fully soaked cubes so I know she gets a lot of water. I think keeping salt supplement up helps too :)
Poop seems smaller/tighter in the winter.... winter poops my friend called them, I'm assuming that has to do with water intake.
My friend used to feed "hay soup" for this reason and I used to do this before I knew my mare was IR.
--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ   7/2022
Sophie TWH mare IR/EMS, PPID?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749

Hi Cris and Lesley,
Yes, it is true, the temp can be a a real issue for some foot sensitive.
From my experience, boots and sock without blanket are usefull only as long the temp stay mild for the horse. As soon it is getting colder, my pony need to to wear blanket. Otherwise the blood and energy doesn't go to the legs and feets.
This fall my pony get really ill during the change from the pasture to the stabulation. She could'nt digest her hay anymore. So I had to change her diet and add some "wet food"( specific hay cub soaked in water) and she feel immediately better. She still eats her soaked hay cubs and interestingly she is really less sensitive to the cold than before. Knowing a part of the heat provides from the bacteria in the gut, i' m asking me if a part of her sensitivity to the cold doesn't comm from bad bacterial overgrowth during the winter time. Winter meaning for her: dry food (hay), cold water (unconfortable for the gut?) and hydratation deficit?
As someone already had a look at that?
My second question on the topic is: as someone already analysed what appens microscopic in the gut of Ppid/ems horses? Is there some atrophy of the microvilli due to chronical wrong bacetrial overgrowth and hormon inbalance that could explain why this horses are prone to cold sensitivity, ulceras, lost of weight, eating pickiness etc with getting older?
Thanks for charing your experience!
Sincerly
Claire

Envoyé de mon iPhone

--
Claire and Flora
Switzerland
April 2019

Case history:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Claire%20and%20Flora
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90883

Thank-you so much for sharing this.

Cathi Cline
Sacramento, CA
2014



--
CCline
Sacramento, CA
2014

Having recently moved to Montana, while they are having one of the earliest and coldest winters so far, I’ve been diligent about watching for foot soreness and haven’t seen it in my two geldings.  However, should I need to start wrapping and booting, what boots and wraps are recommended and how do you keep the snow from packing into the boots, or having them get wet, which would seem to aggravate the cold?  Trying to be prepared so I appreciate the help.

--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921

Good points, Chris. 

I'd add that thick wool felt pads in the boots also seem help to warm hooves more than EVA or foam/rubber pads.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album

Hi Chris

Thanks for sharing your experience. It is similar to my own. I needed to start warming feet and legs for Beau when temps dipped below 50 F.

It is always a challenge to catch members with info exactly when they need it. In the welcome letter, our first goal is to get a correct diagnosis and stop the laminitis.  This time of year winter laminitis comes up often for those in the northern hemisphere. Just a reminder to all that Dr Kellon's lecture proceeding on this is recommended reading.  https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php

That said, as Trisha pointed out, the welcome letter needs to be adapted in conjunction with the new roll out of the new Case History site. Your timing is very good.

thanks for your hard work.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022

HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993

Hi Cris...yes, I agree that the temp change, although not considered super cold, really does have an effect on hoof pain. I'm not sure if we can add it to our welcome letter, but I am sure the team  will discuss it :) Thanks for bringing it up :) 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Primary Responder
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993     

Thank you Cris!
Yes, I live in Phoenix AZ and although not usually terribly cold it does get into the low 40s and even 30s at night this time of year. She would get what I thought were abcesses in September when boarded in the mountains for the summer...but now I realize it was probably just the low night time Temps were causing her to become painful.
Do you have any  experience with success in wrapping legs and wearing boots but no blanket?
My mare has a nice fuzzy coat but  circulation to her feet is compromised.
Sometimes I put the blanket on and sometimes not but always wrap her legs.
Still haven't figured out the wool sock aspect tho.
Thanks for bringing this up :)
--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ   7/2022
Sophie TWH mare IR/EMS, PPID?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749

Hi everyone. I have been thinking about this for a while now. I thought i would share my thoughts and my own experience with colder weather and foot soreness, and hind end weirdness.

I follow the group, and have gotten so much valuable information, so often. I am so thankful this group exists.

What I have realized this year, in early August, is that my 29 year old pony Foster is very sensitive to colder weather, not 30 degrees, or even 40 degrees. But as soon as the night went down to 51 degrees, he started to get foot sore in front, and very awkward in the rear end. Fortunately, as soon as we started to boot up the back feet, (he wears front boots all the time) add socks and a light blanket, he was back to being comfortable right away. As the nights get colder and colder, we add more warmth layers in warmer blankets, warmer socks, and Fleece shipping Boots.  The last few years we have been super diligent about keeping his feet and legs warm. The difference is amazing. And luckily for my pony Foster, this has been the super effective tweak to his life, that has made all the difference in the world.

Everything else is super tight as far as diet, trim, exercise. I was afraid he might be having seasonal rise problems because of the timing. Luckily it was just the colder nights. He is 29 years old, and we have been dealing with his Cushing's and insulin for a very long time.  We learn more as we go. There are so many things I wish I had realized, known sooner, but I do the very best I can, with the help of this group.

I often read messages here when people are having trouble, and I follow the threads. What I have noticed is that the initial welcome response with all the diet, trim, management etc., there isn't a mention right off the bat, or in the instructions about possibly adding boots, socks and warmth if the weather is 50 degrees or cooler. I often see it mentioned later, and there are the threads about winter laminitis. But for many horses and ponies that have had foot troubles, it starts as early as the end of summer once the nights get cooler. And then there are threads in Horsekeeping that address the warmth issue, blankets boots, etc.

I just remember what it is like when your horse is laminitic, in pain, suffering, how stressful and completely overwhelming it is. There is so much to read, learn about, check, etc. But sometimes it is hard to breath and think totally rational, and calm during the crisis. While there is so much to address as far as diet, trim, testing, medications, I just feel that keeping the feet warm and dry, possibly blanketing, adding fleece wraps as needed maybe should be touched on right away, even as early as end of summer, as part of the thing to look out for... not just in the winter. I know it is touched upon often throughout the group messages, but again, when you are stressed out and overwhelmed, combing through all the messages and information is difficult.

There is so much knowledge and help to be found here. Everyone is so wonderful and helping so many horses, and people. Thank you so much.

Just wanted to share that for my pony, the warmth part of management has been the secret sauce for us to keep him comfortable even when it isn't what one would generally consider "cold" at 51 degrees, and as early as August.



--
Cris Bliss  California 2018