New Member with questions
Hello! I’ve joined this group to become more educated on how to better manage two horses in my herd of seven that are IR. I’ve never had them officially diagnosed by a vet but both have or have had cresty necks and both are overweight most of the time. One has or has had the typical “slipper” foot (it’s looking pretty normal at this point though). So I just assume they are IR. Currently the one with the “slipper”
foot has gone dead lame in that same foot but I don’t know if it’s a laminetic episode, thrush, an abscess, an injury or something else altogether. Does laminitis tend to show up in both feet or is it common for it to show up in one foot only?
She does not have a strong digital pulse, hot hoof, increased heart rate or visible white line separation. Last summer she did have visible white line separation and a hard, cresty neck, but we switched hay suppliers last June and she lost weight, lost her cresty neck & was sound.
We currently have put her in boots and pads and treated her for thrush because she’s tender in her heels. Last night was the first time we treated her for thrush so we will treat her everyday until we start to see that central sulcus close up more. I’ve also given her a few doses of Previcox and it seemed to help a little. Sometimes she appears to be doing better, other times worse. So we have no idea what we are dealing with. Could be laminitis, thrush, an abscess or an injury that isn’t visible. It did get really cold here last week and I had no idea that cold can trigger laminetic episodes (stupid me!). Now I know. But it has warmed up a but and our ground is no longer frozen.
All that said, I am working on figuring out how to obtain samples from our 3x3x8 bales of hay without having a hay probe (I’m waiting on our local ag extension office to get back to me about lending me a hay probe). The problem I’m facing is that separating her from the herd would both limit her ability to move and allow her access to grass (basically lawn).
Since she did well last summer on the orchard grass that she’s currently eating, I am hesitant to blame the hay being too high in NSC. Once we switch over to this hay she lost weight and we were able to get her “slipper” foot looking almost normal. She’s gained some weight but is still thinner than she was last summer and her neck doesn’t appear to be hard, although she still has a bit of a cresty neck but it doesn’t appear to have gotten bigger and it’s not hard.
Her toes are trimmed back and her heels are at the proper height. Her sole is a bit thin on that foot, although until two days ago, she was moving out well over the hard ground. She’s not a very stoic horse either, so I don’t think she hides a whole lot of pain.
I was delivering supplements to her through Triple Crown Lite (2 lbs/day) but stopped that 2 days ago after realizing that it has an NSC of 10.23%. I started feeding the TC Lite this past October.
Would you expect laminitis to show up within a certain amount of time after a horse has eaten something that is too high in NSC for them, or is it just completely random?
I’m trying to figure out what we are dealing with right now and the best way to manage this horse if our hay is too high in NSC for her.
Thank you for allowing me to join your group! I hope I’ll learn much more about how to manage my horses through this group!
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
Because you're a new member and posting for the first time I'll be sending along your welcome message. Sounds like you have been doing some reading already, but I wanted to point out a few things before I include your welcome below.
1- The ECIR group relies on the DDT/E protocol. What that means is that we (you) need a diagnosis for your horses. - So please get that done just as soon as you are able, paying close attention to the diagnosis and testing portions of your message. It's very important that you follow these guidelines, in the meantime, we encourage you to fill out a case history giving us as much information as you can, including breeds, age, sex, etc. I would also suggest testing them for PPID as well.
2- Next is diet, we recommend putting your horses on the emergency diet until you do get that diagnosis, which includes a low starch and sugar grass hay, flax, magnesium, and salt. If they continue to be footsore you may need to soak their hay, for thirty minutes in hot water or an hour in cold. You can usually see changes pretty quickly if the hay is the issue. It's also necessary that they are not allowed to graze until you know what you're dealing with. If you can get your hay tested you will know what your needs are as far as supplements, magnesium is a good start. Here are some good options if you need a carrier.
Safe Bagged Feeds.pdf (groups.io)
3- Exercise You can put them out in a sealed muzzle IF they are moving around ok, but NEVER force movement. It will be worse for them if their feet are already compromised.
4- We don't recommend NSAIDS for laminitis, it may be ok initially for the first day or two, but laminitis is usually caused by uncontrolled insulin, so again testing needs to be done asap. The goal is to remove the trigger that is causing the insulin to spike and NSAIDs will do nothing for their pain if this is the case.
Cold-induced laminitis can be brought on with temperatures as low as the fifties, we recommend boots, socks, and shipping boots (wraps) or something to keep their legs and feet warm. It's a slippery slope with boots and thrush, just be sure to use a good foot powder and clean them out often. I used wool socks and wool lining for my horse's boots with a good dose of foot powder. I'm going to leave you with some reading material, but please let us know if you need any additional help, and notice the blue hyperlinks in the message, it will take you even deeper into the subject for additional reading!
NO Laminitis! Conference Proceedings 2015 | ECIR Group, Inc. (ecirhorse.org)
Hoof Pain Triggered by Cold | Dr. K's Horse Sense (wordpress.com)
Why NSAIDs & Icing Are Not Recommended .pdf (groups.io)
Hello
Welcome to the group!
The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.
Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.
Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have.
Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.
PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.
The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".
In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk
*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.
*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now.
Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed.
DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.
No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
- low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
- low fat (4% or less)
- mineral balanced
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse.
*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers.
There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it.
What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only.
No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.
We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.
TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.
Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet.
You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.
EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.
For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.
If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Bobbie and Maggie
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2018
ECIR Group Primary Response
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821
I am posting your private message to me in the main form here so all can be of help to you. We encourage everyone to ask their questions here.
Im sorry if you found my comments confusing, not my intentions. We absolutely don’t mean we won’t help you without a diagnosis. We’re here to help. It’s just without more information we don’t know what caused your horses laminitis (or if it is). Mechanical issues can cause lameness, abscesses as well.
It’s true that pain, stress can cause insulin spikes that’s why we encourage you to test at home in a less stressful environment. Non fasting means just don’t give her anything that can cause a spike in insulin. Just forage or pellets beet pulp etc. Safe feeds .
Again we want you to reach out with questions, we know that your head is most likely spinning, it’s a lot!
Hang in there. If you could start a case history it would help everyone.
Hi Bobbie & Maggie -
Thank you for responding to my introductory post! I’ve read a lot of the information on the ECIR website and your post to me said that I need to get my horse diagnosed before anyone can help me. I am trying to figure out if I’m even dealing with a laminetic episode or if it’s something else, but am a little confused by what I am reading on the ECIR site. It says to refrain from testing for EMS until the acute phase of laminitis has been controlled. Assuming it is a laminetic episode, the ECIR site says that the horse should have hay available at all times during the day and night prior to testing. Does the “emergency” diet mean to soak a whole days worth of hay (25-30 lbs) so she has it available to her 24/7? The ECIR site also says the horse should only have hay prior to testing. She gets salt, magnesium and ground flaxseed twice a day already, but in Teff hay pellets. Will the salt, magnesium and flaxseed in Teff hay pellets affect the testing? I’m assuming that the hay pellets count as “hay only” but am not sure about the other things. Also, I would have to separate her from the rest of the herd in order to feed her soaked hay, which would severely limit her ability to move. I can hand-walk her a few times a day for 10 minutes or so, depending on the day, but is that enough? Or should I limit/minimize her movement altogether?
Also, just because you mentioned it, I have her foot wrapped up with vet wrap with a wound dressing under it , and I sprinkled powder in her boots. We will treat her every 24 hours - remove her boots, clean her foot out, soak it and treat it with No Thrush Powder followed by the antifungal Artimud. It’s clear that her heels hurt and she is very sensitive when a hoof pick is inserted into her central sulcus. Tonight I will probably swap out the pads with wool. Right now she has the Easy Care pads that come with Cloud boots. She has a history of thrush and this last summer we made good progress in getting her central sulcuses to close up quite a bit but there is still a gap there.
Thank you for your help/clarifications! I appreciate it!
Carolyn (in Utah - 2022)
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Bobbie and Maggie
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2018
ECIR Group Primary Response
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821
One foot lameness really sounds like an abscess because laminitis affects all 4 hooves, although usually the fronts more severely. But you are right to be concerned and proactive about EMS because these horses can have a lot of abscessing if their insulin isn't controlled, and abscess pain really is the worst pain. They can show up months after the cause, so this could be an after effect of last June's flareup. Sounds like this hoof has problems on a regular basis so its not surprising if it is an abscess. NSAIDS will slow down the abscess exiting so even though it's painful, we recommend speeding up the process by stopping NSAIDS and adding the herb jiaogulan to increase blood flow to the hooves (it's a very effective and safe vasodilator), which you'll find dosing information on in the Files if you type that in the search box. You can also soak in Epson salts if soles aren't thin, or do a dry Numotizine (sp?) poultice if soles are thin.
For the ER diet, I soak 24 hrs of hay at a time, pre-separated into slow feed nets that I set out 4x a day, as close to 6 hrs apart as I can. The longest they can go without hay before their insulin is affected is somewhere between 4-6 hrs, after 6 hrs it's considered fasting and they will have an insulin spike with their next meal. These horses cannot regulate their intake and they will overeat if given hay 24/7, so it's up to us to help them by regulating their diet for them, and get creative with making meals last longer. She should be fed 2% of her current weight, no more, so 25-30 lbs is probably too much.
For testing, make sure she has eaten forage only at least 4 hrs prior to the blood pull. This might mean giving extra overnight so she doesn't run out if your vet is coming at 8am (or get up early and feed her by 4am). She does not need to eat steadily until the vet comes, just make sure she got a meal at least 4 hrs (and no more than 6 hrs) before. We don't recommend any hay pellets because they are not guaranteed to be safe, but you can feed that before the test if that's her normal forage. Salt, Mg and flax will not affect her bloodwork.
There are lots of factors leading to metabolic laminitis but they all have in common high insulin, which is usually diet-related unless the horse also has PPID. Cold temperatures, fasting, steroids, some sedatives, etc can also increase insulin, but usually don't put a horse into acute laminitis unless they were already mostly there (ie, sub-clinical laminitis with elevated insulin). So diet, and exercise when sound, are the 2 keys to preventing laminitis.
It's actually a blessing you have 2 horses that may have EMS because you can keep them together in the same grass-free turnout and on the same diet, without depriving them of companionship.
I hope we've covered your most pressing questions but reply to the group if Bobbie or I missed something.
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Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album
Hi Kirsten! Thank you so much for the response and for helping me navigate through my questions. I’m inclined to think that we are dealing with thrush or an abscess too, which might be attributed to her laminitis last summer. We treated her again last night for thrush and while she’s still lame, she came trotting for her supplements this morning! A few days ago (5?), she wouldn’t even come in for her supplements. So, she is improving! It’s a relief to see improvement after seeing improvement then seeing her get worse over and over again over the last few days. I haven’t given her any Previcox for 2 days, after learning that it wouldn’t help if she was having a laminitic episode anyway. But I did not know that it can slow down an abscess from popping out, so thank you for that information. We aren’t seeing any signs of an abscess yet but we are inspecting her hooves closely every night. I’m really wondering if it is thrush, or if it’s because of the TC Lite. I haven’t given her any for about 3 days. I also ordered some of the j herb (I can’t remember how to spell it lol) last night and it should be here on Monday.
I’m going to get my hay tested soon (waiting on the county ag extension office to get back to me on borrowing a probe). If it’s over 10% NSC, then we will re-arrange our set up so she and the other IR horse are together and still near the herd, but not able to access the Bale Barn. We will have to feed them soaked hay out of separate hay nets. I really hope it doesn’t come to that though! My husband will NOT be happy LOL
I have tried to find the TC hay cubes but no one in my area has them and I can’t seem to find a place to order online either. But sourcing that, even if we have to travel, might be more convenient than soaking 50 lbs of hay everyday. I know I can find lots of information on how to do that but right now the thought of it makes me want to cry LOL
Thank you 🙏🏼 You all are wonderful!
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
I think we’ve found the culprit! I think it’s an abscess! Tonight we found a bruise, that is likely an abscess but only time will tell. She’s had hoof bruises in the past but they typically only bother her for a day or so. I have a photo and will upload it to her case file once I figure it out ☺️
For now, she’s still booted with pads and we’re still treating for thrush, just in case.
She has thin soles on this foot in particular that I assume
is due to her previous laminetic episodes. I will get our hay tested as soon as I can but I now know that this horse absolutely cannot have any sugars, so that means treats are
Timothy hay pellets and limited at that!
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
I don’t suppose timothy pellets are a problem in small amounts but it’s important to keep in mind that the sugar/starch published for the product does not guarantee that each bag will meet the published values.
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ECIR Group Primary Response
Martha and Logo
I think the only way I am going to be able to help her build sole is through better diet. The TC Lite didn’t help, that’s for sure. In the past, when I’ve rehabbed our two navicular horses, I used boots and pads (and a proper trim) to get them moving properly. I’m not sure the boots and pads approach is effective with an IR horse if their diet isn’t right. I would like to get better pictures of her feet so the person her that does mark-ups can do some mark-ups for me and I can share with our trimmer.
I am also going to see about getting her tested by the vet. Unfortunately, we only have one vet nearby and getting him to make a farm call will mean that he won’t be able to come for a long time. I’d have better luck by taking her in and from what I’m reading here, it’s better for them to be in their home environment when tested.
I’m still reading and learning though so I apologize if I sound ignorant. I am! 😵💫
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
Are you seeing a reduction in pain? If yes, I think it would be ok to wait on testing until your vet can come. Just follow the recommended diet, get your hay tested, minerals balanced, and work on improving the trim. I personally would remove anything that could be a trigger until pain is under control and you have bloodwork done, including the timothy pellets, but as Martha said it depends on the amount you give. If it's truly just a couple for a treat, fine, but if it's a measurable amount like 1 cup, that's pushing it. Unmolassed beet pulp pellets work as small treats, too. Celery is safe and horses love it.
I have not been able to build sole in my horse even with several years of correct diet and careful trimming. As a result, his fronts are booted 24/7, and variably on his hinds. He is so much more comfortable in boots, he steps out so nicely with heels landing first, that it's worth the extra effort of checking /changing them 1x/day. Boots and pads are very helpful for IR horses and the stimulation a pad provides to the sole and frog is still beneficial, but you're right that diet and exercise are critical and without these to keep insulin down the hooves will not improve. I'm sure many horses do grow back sole but it might depend on how much damage there is to the corium below the coffin bone, as per Dr Bowker.
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Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album
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Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album
She also has what appears to be a vertical crack around her RF heel. I did not notice this until I looked at the pictures. And now, she has some sort of oblong horizontal bump around the coronet band of her left hoof. This just showed up today and she's not lame in that foot so I'm not sure what to make of it. Could just be from the boots? I have no idea, but maybe one of you can take a look and give me your thoughts?
I've now uploaded her case history along with some photos. I realize that the photos aren't the best, and they were taken before we lowered her heels and took a little off her toe, and all but two are of the right foot which is the one she's lame on. Tonight we noticed a strange bump on her left foot coronet band so there are pictures of that as well. Again, I understand the pictures aren't the greatest so please don't try to assume too much. I know I need to get better ones. I'll be 1000% honest though -- figuring out how to create a Case History file, upload it, create a photo album, upload and properly name the photos was a huge challenge. I'm not even sure I named the photos correctly. I also included a link to two videos of me touching her flanks. If someone can explain to me what flank sensitivity means, I'd really appreciate it. And if someone could take a look at the photo that I think is a hoof bruise or abscess, I'd really appreciate your thoughts on it. She had what I thought was a hoof bruise in the exact same place last summer. But my husband has been reading the Lydia Nevzorova "Nevzorov Haut Ecole Hoof Care Principles: A Step by Step Guide to the Basics" book and is telling me that a lot of photos in that book show the same mark. I'm not sure he should assume that it's normal.
She's got good depth in her collateral grooves, but zero at the apex of her frog. In fact, one side of her frog is adhered to her sole. We've never seen that before so unsure what to make of it.
I will call the vet next week to see when I can get her in for some radiographs.
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
Case History: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Case History
Photo Album: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Photo Album
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
Case History: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Case History
Photo Album: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Photo Album
I wouldn't start Jiaogulan until the trim is in better shape.
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Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com BOGO 2 for 1 Course Sale Through End of January
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."
Dr.K and others are way more knowledgeable in this area than I but my horse did this “bulge” when he blew an abscess in the coronary band. Very tricky spot to care for.
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Bobbie and Maggie
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2018
ECIR Group Primary Response
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821
I've seen similar coronet bulges when the skin is wet all the time, too, when I made the mistake of leaving wet boots and socks on for 24 hrs. Given your muddy conditions could that be a factor? Skin gets swollen and soft and rubs away with the hair if it's wet 24/7. Dry socks and boots swaps 2x a day should prevent that if that's the problem. Don't put wet boots back on unless you put a plastic bag over the hoof, sock, and lots of foot powder to keep them dry.
I suspect that dark spot is pigment only because the bruises I've seen in light coloured hooves actually look reddish brown (blood), but I've only seen bruises on my horse so don't have a lot of experience with sole bruises. I understand pigment can come and go in the sole as it grows?
Don't forget to markup the hooves before radiographs, as described here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1571
(your vet may or may not do it for you, don't count on them though. I just have the markers in place before they arrive, covered with a sock and boot so they don't get rubbed off while we wait)
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Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album
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Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album
To answer your question, no, she is not pigeon-toed. Those photos were taken before my husband moved her heels back and shortened her toe. I should have posted photos after he trimmed her. I used an angle meter and her angle looked to me to be about 48 degrees, after trimming. I'll upload that picture to her photo album. Maybe someone can take a look and let me know if I did it wrong. We are going to trim her again in a few minutes and I'll take before/after pictures and add then to her CH photo album. My husband has been looking at her feet every night and he too noticed the overgrown bar, so he's going to do as you suggest with the hoof pick to see if he can get underneath of that bar mass on the medial side and snap it off.
Both of us have a basic understanding of how to do a proper barefoot trim but there are a lot of things we don't know (but continue to try to learn - as everyone here probably knows, it can be incredibly difficult to get good/proper information when it comes to horse feet). For instance, is there a specific reason for her to be growing bar so quickly, to the point of causing pain? She was trimmed on Dec 17th by our normal trimmer and I personally watched him cut her bars out with his nippers. We'll do a better job going forward to examine her feet more often and trim her when needed. I think I learned through this group that IR horses tend to grow more heel, so that's something we're aware of now and will keep a closer eye on as well.
Something else that I'm not sure about is the tip of the frog not being the true tip of the frog. What can I do about that? As I mentioned earlier, one side of the tip of her frog is adhered to the sole. We tried to get under it and free it, but it is really "stuck" and we didn't want to be poking/digging around in an area that we know there's not much sole without understanding why the frog is adhered to the sole like it is.
I started the Jiaogulan this morning but I'll refrain from giving it to her until we get her trim right.
Thank you again for your help.
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
Case History: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Case History
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When I boot Pepper, I have been using a human wound pad on the bottom of her foot, or around her heel bulbs/heel buttress and then vet wrapping her feet every 24 hours, about 2-3" above her coronet band. Unfortunately I only have one pair of boots that fit her and because they are covered in mud when we take them off to re-wrap her feet, I have been washing them off. So, we have been putting wet boots on her. I have tried to put a sock on her feet before but I can't find any in my house big enough to go over her hoof LOL I'll look around again in a bit though to see what I can find. I do use a lot of foot powder in her boots & on her foot, including around her heel bulbs and coronet band. The day before yesterday I ran out of vet wrap so had to use what I had on hand, which was for humans so I wasn't able to wrap her feet like I described above. I think that's the reason she has some rubbing going on. But I wasn't aware of using a plastic bag. That's a great idea. I'll do that tonight (along with socks, if I can find any that will go over her hooves).
I also wasn't aware that what I thought was a bruise could just be pigment. I'm learning so much! Thank you!
I will take a look at the link you provided regarding marking up the hooves prior to radiographs. I'm going to have to take her in to the vet for them though, unfortunately. I'll call them as soon as they open next week to see when I can get her in. If I wait for a farm call, it will be months LOL Also, the last time I had radiographs taken "in the field", they weren't as great of quality. That was about 6 or 7 years ago though so who knows, maybe technology is better now :)
Also, with regard to my comment about her becoming less lame with walking (unbooted) just meant that she becomes less lame with walking, regardless of whether she's booted or not. Her first few steps are always painful but after she takes about 10, she looks a lot more comfortable, regardless of whether she's booted or not. And sometimes she's clearly more comfortable in boots, other times she walks the same with or without them. Sometimes she's loping and trotting with the herd, other times she's a 3-legged horse! It's a rollercoaster with her! She's kinda dramatic. One time she fell over in a 10" wide "river" while my husband was riding her. She did not try to get up, like a "normal" horse might have. Everyone panicked and thought she'd broken a leg or had a leg caught in her breast collar or something. Then she started enjoying herself by snacking on the grass, still laying on her side. That's when I knew she was fine. Luckily neither my husband nor Pepper were hurt but good grief! LOL It took her about 10 minutes to decide to get up. One time she's laid down to roll and decided she was just going to have to die there because she couldn't get up - she was trying to get up by rolling uphill and it required far more effort than she was willing to expend. My husband and I had to flip her so she was downhill and could get up LOL With Pepper, you just never know. I've seen her be dead lame and two hours later, just fine. *sigh*
Again, thank you all for your continued help. More to come!
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Carolyn L in UT 2022
Case History: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Case History
Photo Album: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Photo Album
Carolyn, you can dry freshly washed hoof boots quickly using a hair dryer. I’d make sure they taken off once a day, washed whenever necessary, hoof picked and dried with horse standing in deep shavings, thrush treatment reapplied and fresh boots reset. Boot fit will get easier as you get a more normal trim. I frankly never saw my horse get any relief from rubs by adding a layer of anything, but you might have better luck.
Bars may seem to grow out of nowhere but IME what happens is they look more prominent when nearby sole exfoliates. I’ve had several battles with bars breaking and gouging out nearby sole. I had good luck cutting off detached fragments using my hand pruning shears.
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Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
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