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Robin & Bree
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I've submitted all the information I have so far on Bree. I tried the emergency diet and she refused to eat the soaked hay. I'm crrrently feeding a restricted diet of 15lbs of the tested hay (posted). She is getting turned out for a few hours for exercise. I'm still feeding 2 cups soaked Timothy with Optizyme and less than a cup of TC ration balancer with the Thyro-L until a better plan can be addressed. I am ready to make changes where needed. Thoughts are welcome.
-- Robin B MO 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robin%20and%20Bree/ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=283024 |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Robin. Have you tried soaking the hay and letting it dry? Some folks have had good luck soaking the hay, then spreading it out on a panel of chain link fence set up on 2 saw horses or whatever plat form you may have...then once dry or almost dry refill your feed bags or whatever you use to feed out hay to your horse.
-- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Primary Responder Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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I've used an old screen door propped up on bricks to dry soaked hay. Lots more ideas in the Horsekeeping group too.
-- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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Hi Robin,
Could you please add the pertinent blood testing results to your Case History form? This would include each test you did for insulin, glucose and ACTH. Barring that, you might relabel your testing results so we know which to look at for which value and move them into your empty lab test results folder. I thought I read in your notes that your ACTH testing was done in August. I finally found it in an April dated Antec report which described October results. Obviously, I misread something but locating it in your CH would have saved some time. We wouldn’t advise feeding timothy pellets or a ration balancer. The pellets aren’t guaranteed to be low enough in ESC + starch for an IR horse and the ration balancer doesn’t balance anything - it’s just a general vitamin/mineral mix. Thyro L is recommended by us to jump start weight loss but, if it’s been given awhile, it’s done what it can do. It doesn’t do anything to decrease insulin. If you stop it, it needs to be done very gradually. Her body has adapted to its presence and needs to readapt to its absence. My understanding is that she is getting 4 hours of turnout on pasture presently, plus 15 pounds of carefully selected hay. If that’s the case, I can understand that she won’t eat the soaked hay. It seems that she gets at least the equivalent of 10 pounds of hay from grazing. Shortening the grazing period doesn’t help much because it’s been found that most of the grass intake while grazing comes at the beginning of the turnout period. We don’t recommend unmuzzled turn out on pasture for IR horses. To complicate this, QHs are rarely IR. We have seen some that are and it may depend on their breeding. Horses with Spanish blood are more likely to be IR than others. Was she on pergolide when this blood draw was done? It’s right in the middle of the rise so I would have expected a higher ACTH value than you found. I suggest doing the bloodwork again, now that the rise has abated, and sending the blood to Cornell for analysis. Please follow our testing protocol for feeding and sample handling, links to which are included in our Welcome Letter. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Robin, Are you muzzling Bree when she's out? Is there a reason you're feeding the ration balancer and timothy pellets instead of replacing them with rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp or Stabul-1 as a carrier? Is she still allowed access to the round bale? Thryo-L can help jump start weight loss but will not help with insulin numbers - to do that you need to micro-manage Bree's diet. That means no turnout on grass without a closed muzzle, even in winter, and weighing all hay and any other supplements she eats. If her ideal weight is 1035lbs she's currently 90lbs overweight and should be eating no more than 2% of her ideal weight (20.7 lbs.) a day including hay and any grain. If she does not start losing weight on that amount you may need to reduce the amount being fed to less than the 2%. Just because you don't see her eating at the round bale doesn't mean she's not eating it if she has access to it. You can keep her muzzled at all times to limit how much she can eat from it, block her off from it and/or net it to help reduce intake from it but allowing free choice access like that will make managing her weight problematic.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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I apologize for my sloppy files. I only have a tablet and I'm not computer savvy. My vet recommended Prascend but I wanted to manage the diet first to see if I can get some weight off her. My widow SS funds are limited. I will do what I can with the hay and make changes to her supplements.
Thank you -- Robin B MO 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robin%20and%20Bree/ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=283024 |
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Robin,if you let us know where you get stuck with your files,someone (more savvy than I) will be happy to give a leg up.
Be sure, too, to check the How To links in your Welcome letter. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario 2002 |
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Hi Robin,
Thanks for moving your bloodwork files into their folder and labeling them with the month. It would be very helpful if you could transfer the insulin, glucose and ACTH values to your Case History though, especially as time passes and you accumulate more details. To do that, you need to locate the original word processing files (.doc or .pages) on your device, fill in those numbers etc, then save that as a pdf with the date in the file name (to distinguish it from the older version), and finally upload it and delete the old version from your Case History folder. My impression is that Bree needs dietary changes to get her insulin down ASAP. Anything above 80 uIU/ml puts her at risk for acute laminitis and founder. The rye-alfalfa-timothy hay is borderline high at 9.7% ESC+starch, but you might find if you can get her off the rye grass and alfalfa that she can handle grass hay with ESC+starch up to 10%. Can you look for a low sugar grass-only hay to try her on? Maybe you can source some cheaply to try...see if anyone gas old gay you can buy (as long as it's not moldy). Soaking alfalfa, too, can get kind of skungy so she could be objecting to that. Based on your bloodwork and Case History I don't see anything suggestive of PPID. I would hold off on Prascend and direct all your efforts towards diet and getting that insulin down. If diet isn't enough, then we suggest first trying 30 mg/kg body weight of Metformin, 2x a day. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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I should add that your posted hay test was the 601 test, meaning the carb analysis was done by NIR methods. This is not as accurate as wet chemistry methods (603 test) and since you are making major decisions (to soak or not, to buy new hay or not) based on the carb contents you should get the most accurate results. Your hay could actually be well over 9.7% ESC+starch.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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