I added them to Pepper’s case history file. I have asked Equi-Analytical to retest the iron in both 1st and 2nd cut samples,
or the 2nd cut sample given that the first cut shows more than half of the iron that the 2nd cut shows. That might be normal for different cuts of hay to have different iron levels but it seems odd to me for there to be that much of a disparity. Was it appropriate for me to ask Equi-Analytical to retest for iron? 1st cut shows 217 ppm/98 mg/lb as tested and 237 ppm/107 mg/lb for dry matter while 2nd cut shows 534 ppm/242 mg/lb as tested and 590 ppm/268 mg/lb for dry matter. I asked them if they could retest the 2nd cut after shaking it in a colander. I haven't opened any of the 2nd cut hay yet but the first cut is dusty, which is no surprise given the area it was grown. It was grown in Snowville, UT which is a very dry, desolate area.

Pepper has not been fed any of the 2nd cut hay. We have about 12 bales of the 1st cut left before we start feeding the 2nd cut hay. 

I had the Se and Cr levels tested through Utah State University through wet chemistry. Those results are in her case history too. Spoiler alert! Se is 0. I knew we had selenium-deficient soils in Utah but I was surprised to see that it was zero. I have been supplementing with Se for a long time but consistently since Oct 2022. Cr tested at 1.9 mg/kg for the 1st cut and 1.3 mg/kg for 2nd cut. I’ve been supplementing with 4 mg of Chromium per day for all of my horses since Oct 2022. Do you think I need to continue with it or are they getting enough through their hay? I have no idea how much hay each horse eats in a day, but we have 7 horses eating off of 3x3x8 bales that weigh between 750-800 lbs. Right now with our temps in the teens at night and high 20’s-low 30’s during the day, it takes them about 4 days to go through a bale. So just guessing I’d say that they are eating between 26-28 lbs/day each. 

Also, I called my city and asked about the iron levels in our water and they told me that if it wasn’t listed on the annual water report then the levels were too low to be detectable. 

If I don’t need to have my hay retested for the iron or once I get those test results back, would I ask Dr. Kellon to help me balance Pepper's diet? I signed up for her NRC Plus course as well as the Cushings and IR nutrition course and from reading the  Hay Balancing PDF here, it says she does one diet balancing for free if you sign up for one of her classes. I don’t know how I will be able to balance copper and zinc to the iron in the 2nd crop. That is a LOT of zinc and copper. Hay testing is not common in my area so even if I can find anyone with hay right now that I can afford to buy, I do not have the funds to test several batches of hay at $71 a pop - and that's assuming someone would let me drill into their hay with a probe. We have high levels of iron levels in my state so I am not optimistic that I’d even be able to find hay with lower levels than what’s in my current hay. Shaking it out could be problematic because we feed the 3x3x8 bales in a slow feed hay net. We might be able to put it in the net, cut the strings then pick it up with the tractor and shake it but I don’t know if that would be very effective. We may have to try though if the test results of the 2nd cut are accurate. 

I don’t want to test Pepper’s iron levels because I don’t know that I have a way to manage her any differently (see my comments above about high iron levels in my area, testing hay and my wallet).

All that said, she’s not lame anymore! We addressed her trim and we treated her 3 times with the Tomorrow product. We also made the horses a sizeable space that is mud-free. So, no idea what caused the lameness or what fixed it, other than I know it wasn’t because the ESC & starch in my hay is too high, so that’s a relief ☺️ 

--
Carolyn L in UT 2022

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Hi Carolyn,

I wouldn't feed the second cut hay as whole bales since that level of iron is so high.  The upper limit for toxicity is 500 ppm.  The high iron is probably dirt contamination if the hay is from the same field.  One rain storm splashing dirt onto the stems is all it takes, or a dust storm.  Shaking or rinsing the hay would be a good idea.  Maybe your tractor can shake it but that seems unlikely to work as the dirt inside the bale can't fall out.  Rinsing it would be even better. 

Dr Kellon can answer your question about supplementing chromium when she does your diet balancing.  You should probably email her at drkellon "at" gmail "dot" com to set it up.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
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I was primarily interested in finding out if it was appropriate to ask Equi-Analytical to retest the 2nd cut. While I appreciate the response, I am not sure the reality of my particular situation is being understood. I have read your other comments about 500 ppm being the upper limit of iron for any horse, which is where my concern originated.
You mentioned that “Rinsing it would be even better.” Do you have any suggestions on how I’d do that with a 750-800 lb bale, in the winter in Northern Utah? 😅 I think the hay would freeze almost immediately. Once it warms up, that’s not an issue but I don’t know how to rinse a 750-800 lb bale of hay without it weighing 1500 lbs and risking ripping the net. But I’m all ears for any suggestions! /)

Unfortunately, I don’t believe I have any other options as far as feeding the 2nd cut goes. As I mentioned, *if* I can even find hay right now (hay was extremely difficult to source this year due to the drought) it will be extremely expensive (off-season at this point so more expensive than during the summer, plus I just spent $14K on hay, that I’m still trying to recover from, so I just don’t have $7-$10K to spend on more hay, even if I can sell what I have now) AND the supplier would have to be willing to let me probe their hay to take samples, then I’d have to send it in and pay $71 per sample and then wait for the results. I live in a very rural area of the state, which would require me to travel quite a ways to even be able to pull samples. I have a very stressful, high-tempo job - I just can’t take the time off of work to travel all over the state taking hay samples). Plus, I already know that the iron in our soils is high, everywhere, so I am I just don’t think that’s going to be a possibility for me, financially or logistically, especially before I run out of 1st cut hay and I am not optimistic that I’d even find hay with a lower iron content, without a higher starch and ESC percentage. I think the 2nd cut sample may have had a dirt clump in it or there may have been an error. It seems odd to me that there would be that much of a difference between 1st and 2nd cuts. But what do I know? Hence the questions. Is it normal to see that much of a difference in iron between cuts when the hay was grown in the same field? If it’s not typical, I would like Equi-Analytical to retest the hay. USU may still have my samples and I can ask them to test those samples for iron. I didn’t ask them to do that because I was having it done by Equi-Analytical. But it may be useful to see what USU finds (their testing for elements is done through wet chemistry). I’m struggling with why the two cuts would be so different when grown in the same soil. I don’t know why the iron content of the soil would have changed so drastically.

I am going to have to do the best that I can with what I have, unfortunately. I will talk to Dr. Kellon about iron chelates to see if that might be an option if the retesting of the hay comes back with the same/high iron levels.

Thanks for you help. I’m looking for solutions that work with the resources I have available to me.


--
Carolyn L in UT 2022

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I would call Equi-Analytical and ask their thoughts about your concerns and whether retesting would make sense. I’ve found them to be friendly and knowledgeable. 
--
Lasell (luh-SELL) ~ Virginia USA ~ September 2022
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Carolyn, I feel your pain over the cost of hay and finding good hay. 
To answer your question, " Is it normal to see that much of a difference in iron between cuts when the hay was grown in the same field? ", yes it can be. Often the iron in hay is on the surface, not internal. This can be be caused by heavy rain splashing dirt on the hay sometime prior to cutting. High iron can also be caused by setting the cutter too low and slightly scalping the ground. These things can cause large differences.
If you think you might have hit a dirt clod with the probe, could you take new samples and test for iron only? That would be cheaper than the full test.

--
Kim 10-2014

Clover, SC
ECIR Group Moderator 

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Carolyn 

Maybe it’s my eyes trying to focus on a iPhone but I don’t see nitrates on your tests? 

All you would have to do is call and if they still have your samples they’ll re-run them, I’ve done it several times. I would also ask them to do nitrates. We do have our challenges here in Utah but we’re not alone.
At least your calcium wasn’t too high like mine.

--

Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
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They emailed me this morning and told me that my sample were tested twice and they suggested that I submit a new sample (at my own expense). *sigh*

I called USU (but had to leave a message) to see if they still have my samples and could test them for iron. I’ll have to wait to see what they say. If they don’t have my samples anymore then I’ll pull new samples and send them to USU since it’s the iron that’s the main concern. For now, I think Dr. Kellon can help me balance Pepper’s diet based on the 1st cut. I have someone else helping me too, out of the kindness of their heart. She has taken all of Dr. Kellon’s classes so is qualified to help me in this area.

I ordered the 603 test from Equi-Analytical. I’d have to look at their website to see if they were supposed to test for nitrates. If I was supposed to ask for that separately, I didn’t know.

I’m glad you understand and can appreciate the challenges we face here in Utah when it comes to hay! My neighbor has the same hay and I’ve asked him if he has any 1st cut that he will trade me for 2nd cut.

Thank you for your support!!
--
Carolyn L in UT 2022

Case History: CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Case History

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Kim - thank you. The 2nd cutting was delayed due to a lot of rain. They weren’t able to cut until October, if I recall. So what you said makes a lot of sense. This hay was grown in the desert between Utah and Nevada, or what was basically the Great Salt Lake. The soil is like a fine powder, so it would easily “splash” on to the grass when it rains.
--
Carolyn L in UT 2022

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Nitrates are an add-on.  As for shaking/rinsing, it would entail setting out daily portions of hay in nets or fed loose so it doesn't freeze into an ice block inside a smaller hay net.  Horses will eat frozen hay, you're not the only one living in winter weather.  I've done it, so have others.  Another option is to mix the hay half and half with a lower iron hay.  I understand that for your large herd that's a tonne of extra work.  But it's up to you to decide if that's realistic for your particular situation...not me.

I don't think it's necessary to ask for an iron retest, UNLESS you send a new sample in.  Your previous sample was dried and blended together so the iron will be very similar in a retest.  You'd have to resample the bales.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
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Yes, Kirsten - Equi-Analytical emailed me this morning and told me that my samples were powder at this point and were already tested twice so I’d have to send a new sample in if I want it retested.

USU tested my samples for iron and the iron is much higher in the 2nd cut than the first cut, so I don’t know that resampling and retesting is going to result in different/better results but I may resample and retest anyway, just in case we got a dirt clump in there somewhere. We have 37 bales of the 2nd cut and I think we pulled samples from 7 bales. I can’t remember what percentage someone here told me to sample but I used that recommendation. So we may have sampled more than 7. I’ll have to find that post. Anyway, I can submit samples that I have shaken in a colander but that doesn’t seem like it will be a representative sample if I can’t shake the hay in a similar manner before feeding. So maybe I will just pull & submit samples in exactly the same way I did the first time. I’m not sure what to do.

I understand that I am not the only person living in winter weather. I mentioned it because I was looking for ideas on how to work within that particular constraint. Horses eating frozen hay didn’t even cross my mind. My question was related to the weight of a wet and/or frozen bale of hay and my ability to move it. 25-30 lbs of wet hay weighs a lot more than when it’s dry so I’m trying to figure out how I’d move smaller hay nets too. I’ve seen other discussions here with the same concerns about feeding soaked hay in the winter because it freezes and the response those people got was not that they aren’t the only ones living in winter weather, others have figured it out so I can too. I do appreciate the suggestions offered here though even though I am a little frustrated. I am just trying to figure out how to implement some of them. Unfortunately, I do not have endless resources and or the time to stuff several hay nets every day with hay from a 3x3x8 bale of hay. I used to do that several years ago and it was very time-consuming, not to mention exhausting. I could never get 25-30 lbs of hay into a hay net by pulling it from a 3x3x8 bale, so I was stuffing hay nets 2 times/day. If I had smaller bales of hay then it wouldn’t be an issue (a pain yes, but doable). I also don’t currently have anywhere to place those hay nets without them being on the ground, which is problematic when there is wet/rainy weather. I’m in the process of establishing multiple slow feeders along my track but it’s challenging to make my own because I have one horse that destroys everything. I had to buy a new hay net a few months ago because he figured out how to pick the Bale Barn up so he and the other horses could free feed out of the bottom of it. I recently made a slow feeder that he drug around, ultimately tipping it upside downside in mud & muck, which then resulted in 50 lbs of hay being ruined/lost. So I am working on things but it’s not as easy as some people think it is or think it should be. Or maybe I’m just a big dummy and incapable of doing things that others have been able to do. 

As far as mixing the two cuts of hay together, I would not get any help from my partner with that because he has had to split 3x3x8 bales in half before and it was so much work, I know he’d just refuse to do it. If someone has some ideas on how to do that easily, I’m all ears. The way we did it before was to wrap two tow straps around the bale, cut the strings, loosen up the tow straps just enough to be able to divide the bale in half then put the tow straps around each half of the bale. If I ask my husband to do that with two bales of hay every 4 days, he might divorce me 😆 But maybe someone here has a better way that I can convince him to help me with.

Right now, I think my plan is to try to shake the hay as best as I can with the tractor once it’s in the hay net and hope that shakes out most of the soil. I have never done that before so not sure what to expect. The hay should fall apart enough once it’s in the net and the strings are cut that I’ll be able to spray/rinse it off. I don’t know what assumption will be made as far as iron levels go if I am able to do shake and/or rinse. If the assumption will be that my hay has 542 ppm of iron, then I am not sure I why would go through all that extra work with shaking and rinsing. Maybe I am missing something. I’m off to try to find some answers!

Thank you for your help and support.

--
Carolyn L in UT 2022

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Carolyn,
Many of us have had hay tests turn up high iron. You already have a reasonable plan that will work to supply a new sample to check iron for the second cut hay. Hand-pull a sample after breaking and shaking a single bale over a tarp. Alternately, a strong person (not me) can use a hay hook to pull hay from deep inside the cut sides of a good representative number of bales (8 or 9 bales). Shake the hay out really well. Have that sample analyzed for iron only.

If the result is much lower than the EA result, you have a probable case of dirt contamination along with an estimate of the lower level of iron. You can balance to that level of iron and then devise ways to use your tractor to break, shake and bag your second cut bales. These methods aren't perfect in terms of sampling error, but it's not a perfect world. Members in locations with ample water resources rinse/dunk hand-pulled samples, dry them completely, and reanalyze iron only. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
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IME, it is not unusual to find higher iron and even manganese, in rained on second cut that probably needed more mechanical tedding.

For others following along, 500 ppm, if true, is toxic, as folks will hear again in NRC Plus.
 
Carolyn, you have your hands full.  No need to respond.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022

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Hi Carolyn. I am offering some suggestions about your track life and hay distribution. There are many different ideas to help folks in all different climates all over the world when tracking horses. Tracking horses can be very labor intensive and not necessarily the easiest for owners. But its so much better for our horses... Protecting the bags of hay is key...investing in a simple structure with a pulley system inside would protect your hay and it would be super easy to lift wet hay or dry hay into a feeding position that is not on the ground. I use a pulley system to remove the soaked hay from the soak water. I tie off the rope and allow the bag to drip for a while...then I swing the bag onto a cooler with wheels or a wheelbarrow or a garden cart and roll it to the hanging area. I do a quick lift and snap it into place. Your feeding alot of hay into one bag making it really hard to manuever...and that gets frustrating...make the mechanical stuff work for you! If you really can't bag smaller portions with more feeding stations, then you may have to compromise and add a small structure with a pulley on the track to assist you in lifting into place. If your tractor fits down the track, and its a balanced weight tractor that should be plenty strong enough to lift wet bales for you. Call some other horsey friends and have them come over and tell them your dilemma...its amazing what perspective and distance from a problem gives solutions you wouldn't have gotten to any other way. Keep your horses tracking! Its a commitment that is for sure! But its so good for them. 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
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