Barbara:

Thanks for joining us, the more input/infor/support we can exchange the
better. Here's my responses to your questions:

<1. Most of you seem to use pergolide. Is it because the cypro stopped
working?>

I am currently using cypro on my 21 yr. old Swedish Warmblood who is still
competing at Intermediare I dressage. I chose that partly on my vets advice
(start with the mildest drug first and see if it will work) and partly
because Permax was so much more expensive. Naturally, after the first month
of reasonably price cypro something happened in the market which jacked the
price way up (just my luck!). I was already having success using it so
decided to stick with it for a while. Also, I had heard that pergolide can
trigger laminitis in some cases (don't know if its true but didn't want to
take the chance). I used cypro pills for the first three months then
switched to the liquid. He's been on that now for 4 months and was doing
well until the last three weeks or so. I am wondering if the cypro is
"wearing out". The expiration date is up in July but I'm wondering if it
degrades faster than the Company says??? Or, is the Cushings progressing???
I'll be doing more bloodwork very soon! I am also contemplating adding a
small amount of pergolide. It may be time.

<2. Do you find that your horses can't tolerate the heat? Amiga is in most
of the day with fans and I either hose her or sponge her with
alcohol/water.>

I find that my horse is sometimes a little cold (we live in the northwest)
when other horses are fine. I also find that different areas on his body
will be normally warm while other areas will be extremely cold to the touch.
(would love to hear anyone's comments on this!)

<3. My vet would like to keep her without shoes if possible. My pasture is
flat and fairly rock free and I had her barefoot until March when I thought
I would be taking her out to shows. What is the consensus about shoes?>

Since my guy is still performing at the FEI level he has to have his shoes.
He has never been able to perform barefoot (and I have tried for long
periods of time). His soles are extremely sensitive and thin. I doubt that I
will ever take the shoes off unless it becomes "the lesser of two evils". If
you have a really good farrier ask her/him for their thoughts. They might
have some ideas to help there. Don't leave them out of the picture and
remember that shoes are not always evil when you have a good farrier.

<4. I've seen a lot of you mention Thyrol. I'm beginning to wonder if
lowering her dose may have triggered this latest flare up. >

I don't have a lot of experience here but I think you're on to something.
Robin, What do you think?

<5. Speaking of flare ups-are there any clues to watch for or will she just
be sound one day and lame the next? Also, is there any hope of riding her
again? She was doing so well and I think was enjoying being ridden-it gave
her a purpose.

My horse has not had any laminitis yet so I can't comment here. As far as
riding I'd say that if she's not lame she would probably enjoy light riding
as much as you would.

As far as testing, several people have suggested trying the Cushings Assay
that BET labs offers. Check them out at betlabs.com. I'm going to try them
myself next week. Apparently they can usually tell you which drug is most
suitable for your particular horse as well as the doseage.

No Dex. Suppression Test for MY horse!!!!

Good Luck

Carla

In a message dated 00-06-20 02:46:40 EDT, you write:

<< 2. Do you find that your horses can't tolerate the heat? Amiga is in most
of the day with fans and I either hose her or sponge her with
alcohol/water.>

I find that my horse is sometimes a little cold (we live in the northwest)
when other horses are fine. I also find that different areas on his body
will be normally warm while other areas will be extremely cold to the touch.
(would love to hear anyone's comments on this!) >>

Strider's previous barn manager said during the heat of last summer
(pre-diagnosis) she often hosed Strider down and put her in her box stall
with a fan running. This summer Strider's coat is shorter -- more normal
looking -- but she still seems to not tolerate heat as well as my gelding. On
the other hand, my gelding is an Arab and is an outdoorsy kind of guy.
Neither heat nor cold seem to bother him. I am trying to watch her carefully
(our hot spell broke) and am thinking about getting a blanket for her for
winter.

I've also noticed when she gets upset she seems upset longer than you would
expect -- like she can't deal with things as well. Stress again?

Very interesting discussion, everyone!
Ann in Indiana

Thanks for joining us, the more input/infor/support we can exchange

the better.>

I agree totally and am VERY happy to have everyones input, and to see
that we have new members: Welcome all!!

<1. Most of you seem to use pergolide. Is it because the cypro

stopped

working?>

My vets have indicated that Pergolide generally works better and for
more horses. They suggested trying cypro first, simply based on cost
(which is now about the same a pergolide I gather, but was MUCH
cheaper back then!). They cautioned me at the time, however, that
the cypro might not work at all, or might lose effectiveness over
time.

Apparently some horses' systems develop a "tolerance" to the cypro
and it slowly becomes less and less effective. BET labs, in this
past week, informed me that sometimes the Cypro quits working BECAUSE
THE HORSE DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH THYROID HORMONES -- AND THAT
SUPPLEMENTING WITH THYROL-L can sometimes keep the cypro effective
for a longer time period. YOU DO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL TO NOT
OVERSUPPLEMENT, but that can be tested (it requires several samples
over a time period, so you'd need to work with one of the labs that
could tell you how to properly do this...).

Anyhow, before I knew that, I tried cypro for awhile several years
ago. It worked beautifully for about 3 months, and I was able to
drop from 3 scoops of thyrol-l to 1 (symptomatically based, not blood
tested). Then I had to increase the cypro dose, and finally it
seemed to quit working that I could tell. That was after about 6
months total on it. Wish I'd known about the thyroid link to its
effectiveness, I'd've tried increasing the thyrol-l supplement to see
if it would have made the cypro effective again and kept her on it if
it was....

Also, I had heard that pergolide can trigger laminitis in some
cases (don't know if its true but didn't want to
take the chance).

This is one I haven't heard before... Carla, can you recall where you
heard it and how reliable the source might be? None of my vets have
ever mentioned it -- and its certainly something we ALL should know
if its true... Also, I'm considering starting Tina on pergolide and
sure would like to know how closely I need to watch for onset
symptoms and so on....

well until the last three weeks or so. I am wondering if the cyprois
"wearing out". The expiration date is up in July but I'm wondering

if it

degrades faster than the Company says??? Or, is the Cushings

progressing???

Seems like either is possible... also, are you shaking the bottle
like mad? Thinking here that it might just be less concentrated now
than before if it wasn't evenly mixed all along... ALSO NOTE ABOVE
WHAT BET TOLD ME REGARDING THE LINK BETWEEN THYROID LEVELS AND CYPRO
EFFECTIVENESS....

I'll be doing more bloodwork very soon!

Will be curious to hear what you wind up testing for and results...

I am also contemplating adding a
small amount of pergolide.

Can Pergolide and cypro be used at the same time? I was under the
impression that it was always an either or question, that both worked
along the same pathways and you couldn't 'double up' safely... not
sure if that's correct tho....

will be normally warm while other areas will be extremely cold to

the touch.

(would love to hear anyone's comments on this!)

Inability to regulate heat AND cold as well as prior to cushings is a
noted and well known side effect/symptom of Cushings -- you are both
probably right on the money with what you've noted. Its my
understanding that this is a function of all the excess cortisol
their body is producing... As to warm/cold areas on the same horse
at the same time, I'd think that patchy fat and also just the lack of
good thermoregulation might be the answer...

<3. My vet would like to keep her without shoes if possible. My

pasture is flat and fairly rock free and I had her barefoot until
March when I thought I would be taking her out to shows. What is the
consensus about shoes?>

I have to agree with Carla... Shoes if needed, barefoot if not...
totally dependent on the particular horse. I've kept Tina barefoot
until she foundered last fall, now she's in natural balance shoes
without pads (for the last two shoeings, before that she had wedge
pads and a 'fake' frog to distribute pressure on the frog while in
the shoes AND unload the apex of the coffin bone).

<4. I've seen a lot of you mention Thyrol. I'm beginning to wonder if

lowering her dose may have triggered this latest flare up. >
I don't have a lot of experience here but I think you're on to

something.

Robin, What do you think?

Personally, I'm pretty convinced although I don't have any proof. I
can say that many people suspect a tie between low thyroid levels and
laminitis, but its not proven yet. Tina had a single bout of mild
laminitis in her last pregnancy (year before diagnosis) when lush
spring grass came in -- and I was likely feeding her more than really
needed too, since I was overworried about her being in the last
month... That was SIX years ago, no founder/laminitis since... until
the barn manager dropped her thyrol-l supplement from three scoops a
day to ONE without telling me. Two to three weeks later, in 115
degree temps (yes, 115, Las Vegas gets HOT, no puns intended!!! ;o))
a FULL WINTER COAT starts coming in... I question barn manager and
tell her to go back to three scoops over a few days... she took a few
WEEKS instead and presto, Tina founders and rotates 2 degress on one
foot, 4 on the other.... and has founder rings (minor) behind also,
even tho the vet never mentioned founder behind. The timing on the
founder just seems awfully coincidental to me...

<5. Speaking of flare ups-are there any clues to watch for or will

she just be sound one day and lame the next?

I think you just have to always be on the lookout for any changes...
does she seem a little stiff today? does she seem to be avoiding
moving more than normal? Any digital pulse? That sort of thing.
Just watch them like a hawk out of habit, without worrying... then
jump on anything suspicious quick! If you can catch laminitis as its
first starting (before they're really lame), you can go a long way
toward minimizing the severity...

Also, is there any hope of riding her again? She was doing so well
and I think was enjoying being ridden-it gave
her a purpose.

If the prognosis on the founder itself is good, I'd think sure... and
it would be good for her too. I don't recall how much you said she
rotated... but talk to your vet. And there is ALWAYS HOPE, its just
a question of how much hope is reasonable.... some horses recover
amazingly well from seemingly bad founder, others get minor cases and
never seem to get back to normal... I was told that with Tina at 2 &
4 degrees, there was good chance that she'd not only go back to being
barefoot eventually, but be fairly sound...

As far as testing, several people have suggested trying the

Cushings Assay that BET labs offers.

I'm heading this direction myself... and had posted you guys a very
long one with information they'd told me over the phone, so check out
the archived messages if interested...

Ditto on Carla's "Good Luck!" and hope this has helped some...

Robin
Desert Springs Sport Horses
http://www.Sportshorses.homestead.com
(best viewed in explorer 4.x or newer)

Can Pergolide and cypro be used at the same time? I was under the
impression that it was always an either or question, that both worked
along the same pathways and you couldn't 'double up' safely... not
sure if that's correct tho....

Robin - I believe that pergolide and cypro go at the same issue from
different ways, so it may be useful to use both. My first vet had even
mentioned this possibility, but wanted to try him on pergolide first.

I have just switched vets because I strongly wanted to use the BET lab work
and first vet wasn't too interested in their work. I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting
the results (maybe today!). My horse has started to grow a winter coat
(100'+ lately!) and is very 'blah'. My new vet is open to putting him on
thyroid supplement also. The possibility of laminitis is so frightening and
this is the main reason I want to use BET since it sounds like it will give
us a program to monitor his progress vs. relying solely on my observations
(which, of course, will have to still be a big part of monitoring him).
There is little definitive research on Cushings and many vets just follow
older protocols. It seems like it is up to us to look for newer work in
this field - thanks to this list we can share our findings!

My horse made such great changes when he first went on the pergolide two
months ago. He had lost the last of his body sensitivity to grooming and
became sound on his left hock that has some serious changes on xrays. He
was on .75gm of permax daily, then I lowered it to .50gm per vet. Within a
few weeks he started to grow a winter coat over his hindquarters and now his
whole topline. He also started to show soreness in the left hock again and
is now very sluggish and again sensitive in his girth area. (I've upped him
to 1gm as I am waiting for the BET lab results taken a week ago.) It makes
sense that the thyroid pills work well with the cypro or permax since the
pituitary and the thyroid work in relationship to each. I'm hopeful that
the combination will do the trick for my horse! I'm also about to go on the
ABC program and glad to hear others are pleased with it.

Take care, Makyla & 4-legged friends