Just looking for direction on next step for weight loss . Track life has been implemented with no grass and diet as listed in history. Weight remains about the same;( 
so do I start thyroid supplement? Give more time? He's so obese, looks larger than a pregnant mare;(
under the direction of Cornell I plan on resting the Acth , in November 
Thanks!
--
Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt 

Hi Adrienne. Your Case History says grass hay, but you don't say if you are weighing it and how much he is getting per day? This is a key factor. Its important to feed 1.5-2% of his IDEAL weight- 
Have you tested your hay for ESC and starch? IF you have not done that you should be soaking the hay- until you can get it tested. 
Track life is great- but not if the horse isn't motivated to move about. When you weigh your hay you can separate it into individual bags and hang in various spots on the track...keep the water furthest away from the hay as possible so he has to go looking for it....and thus move around more. You can also add some small obstacles on the track where he has to pick his path around them, or hop over them if he is inclined. ( I would only encourage movement if he is NOT sore in his feet). Some folks take the weighed hay and scatter it all over the track - the entire length so that the horse has to move to the next section to eat more. Muzzle is definitely in order if there is grass on the track. OR I purchased a really cool tool called an Action Hoe...and it pulls up that grass easily I love it. Its easy to do. I heard about it on this forum and found one at the hardware store. Before adding anything else into his plan I would get those pieces in place first. 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder

Yes I have had it "analyzed" by Equi -Analytical and it is in the acceptable range. Slow feed bags are spread out and water and shelter are all at different locations.
Currently he is in a herd of 8, it is not within our means currently to separate him, nor do I have another track set up at this time for him.
Unfortunately he is not ridden/exercised as much as I would like;(

--
Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt )

Hi Adrienne,

 

Do you have actual test results you can share?  Do you have him muzzled?  Keeping him in a herd situation with unlimited hay access means you're going to have to be creative with limiting his intake to keep him from ending up with laminitis.

 

 

Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response 
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891

 

 

 

 

 Sure, here are results from Cornell. I don't currently keep him muzzled as there is no grass on the track. I was going to attach the photo of the results but I can't figure out how from my phone 😂😂
Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt 

Acth 56.1 (2-30)
insulin 42.94 (10-40)
drawn 8/18/22
--
Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt 

Hi Adrienne,

Since he's quite overweight, the muzzle would reduce how much hay he can eat, and help you get him down to a healthier condition.  If the slow feed nets don't have tiny holes he might be able to eat with a muzzle on.  I personally see giving Thyro-L as a last ditch effort for weight loss.   It causes the horse to reduce their own thyroid output so once they are on it, they need a weaning period to come off it, and in theory they can just regain the weight if a lifestyle change wasn't made.  It might be your only option though if you can't find a way to reduce his consumption.  Any possibility of running a parallel track for him to control his consumption? 

7 is very young for a PPID diagnosis.  It's not impossible but it is exceptional.  As his ACTH was at the high end of the range about 1 month before the peak of the rise, I wonder if he had any stress or exercise the morning of the test?

I would not want to see his insulin go any higher than it is.  A truly healthy number for a horse with EMS would be low 20s or less.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album

This is a digest for Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance. View all your groups.iogroups, and edit your subscriptions, here. Do not reply to this email. To reply to a message, click the Reply link under the message. TOPICS IN THIS DIGEST:  . 1.  Re: New results, advise going forward 2.  Re: Equithrive? (2) 3.  Re: Advice on new IR horse (3) 4.  Re: Restarted Metformin and not going very well 5.  Digestible Energy of soaked hay 6.  equithrive  7.  Updated CH for Andante; could someone see if correct? MESSAGES:  . 1a.   Re: New results, advise going forward  From: Lynda, Max & Ginger Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 17:06:04 CDT  Dr. Kellon, I did look up the micellar Casein that you suggested I include due to my hay’s low protein, but with three horses (Max PPID/ borderline IR, Ginger possibly PPID/ signs of IR,, and Ari, 5 yo Rocky) eating that hay, the cost to add it to all of their diets is a bit out of my price range right now.  With no indication of laminitis or foot soreness ever, and my farrier saying there are no stretched white lines or indications of sub clinical laminitis, would switching out part of the hay for alfalfa add the necessary protein?  If so, what % of their current hay could or should be substituted?  Max currently 15 lbs hay, Ginger 14 lbs, Ari 13 lbs.  All get 1/2 lb Stabul 1 as carrier for supps.  While alfalfa has never been a part of their regular diet, they have all munched it happily in my trailer on the way to rides with no adverse reactions. Thanks for your input. --  Lynda M Northern CA Jan 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lynda%20and%20Max  Max Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277238 Ginger Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=278091 View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 2a.   Re: Equithrive?  From: Deb Walker Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 17:45:27 CDT    [Edited Message Follows] Just to be clear, this is what I said, which is still true based on the website Hide quoted text     I think you all know that what is being discussed is the original EquiThrive Joint to help with joint pain and maybe runny eyes. Just a reminder for new folks or anyone thinking of this product, the EquiThrive Joint Complete has Glucosamine which ECIR Group cautions to not use in EMS/IR horses. Thank you Nancy. Yes, that was the post I was referring to. You were looking at the wrong product on their website. As you can see from the above ingredient list for the product that I am using, there is NO glucosamine. Basically all of the other Equithrive products do have glucosamine, including Classic Joint, Complete Joint UItimate Care, Essential Joint, etc. This is why I have repeatedly said, be sure you are researching or ordering the correct item: https://equithrive.com/products/equithrive-original-joint-pellets?variant=7423357354007 The above does also come in a powder, but the pellets appear to be very tasty, and I'd much rather work with pellets than powder, where I can visually see it's eaten completely.  I would never feed my horse a product that included glucosamine or even yucca, which is why most arthritis and joint supplements have been taboo, The only proof I can offer is the complete ingredient list both from the website and the container, and seeing through my eyes and everyone who works with Scotty the  huge change.  For those comparing costs - the maintenance dose lasts approximately 8 weeks...which comes down to $2.18/day. Since I was able to stop supplementing Move-Ease, my costs have actually lowered. I am in no way a spokesperson for Equithrive...just for the horses that have been amazingly helped by their product.  --  Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019 Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619   View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 2b.   Re: Equithrive?  From: Nancy C Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 20:16:33 CDT  Nope. Not looking at the wrong product.  Just pointing out the difference for folks who may not be aware of the glucosamine issue. There are 100s reading any given post at one time.  --  Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003  ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022 HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 3a.   Re: Advice on new IR horse  From: adrienne price Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 19:26:07 CDT    On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:02 PM, Sherry Morse wrote: Hi Adrienne,   Do you have actual test results you can share?  Do you have him muzzled?  Keeping him in a herd situation with unlimited hay access means you're going to have to be creative with limiting his intake to keep him from ending up with laminitis.     Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response  PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891          Sure, here are results from Cornell. I don't currently keep him muzzled as there is no grass on the track.   I was going to attach the photo of the results but I can't figure out how from my phone 😂😂 Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt    View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 3b.   Re: Advice on new IR horse  From: adrienne price Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 19:28:18 CDT  Acth 56.1 (2-30) insulin 42.94 (10-40) drawn 8/18/22 --  Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt    View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 3c.   Re: Advice on new IR horse  From: Kirsten Rasmussen Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 21:26:16 CDT  Hi Adrienne, Since he's quite overweight, the muzzle would reduce how much hay he can eat, and help you get him down to a healthier condition.  If the slow feed nets don't have tiny holes he might be able to eat with a muzzle on.  I personally see giving Thyro-L as a last ditch effort for weight loss.   It causes the horse to reduce their own thyroid output so once they are on it, they need a weaning period to come off it, and in theory they can just regain the weight if a lifestyle change wasn't made.  It might be your only option though if you can't find a way to reduce his consumption.  Any possibility of running a parallel track for him to control his consumption?  7 is very young for a PPID diagnosis.  It's not impossible but it is exceptional.  As his ACTH was at the high end of the range about 1 month before the peak of the rise, I wonder if he had any stress or exercise the morning of the test? I would not want to see his insulin go any higher than it is.  A truly healthy number for a horse with EMS would be low 20s or less. --  Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator   Shaku's Case History Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album   View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 4a.   Re: Restarted Metformin and not going very well  From: Kirsten Rasmussen Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 21:58:05 CDT  Hi Karen, here is my unsoaked analysis (taken from only 1 bale), and here is the same sample after soaking 1 hr in cold water.  The soaking did lower iron from 227 ppm to 164 ppm, which would affect hay balancing.  Cass is the expert of hay testing so whatever she says, I agree! Apollo's PPID seems very well controlled based on his ACTH.  Based only on his numbers I wouldn't think he needed more pergolide.  But what might suggest it's not controlled would be muscle loss despite the excellent ACTH results.  I would want Dr Kellon to look at his photos and offer her opinion.  Can you post some photos of him when he was younger for comparison?  You could start a new topic asking for her help specifically. --  Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator   Shaku's Case History Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album   View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 5a.   Digestible Energy of soaked hay  From: Lesley Bludworth Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:47:10 CDT  When feeding soaked hay, do i increase the amount/lbs of hay fed to compensate for the loss of calories that is rinsed away? It looks like the digestible energy is reduced by about 22% in the soaked hay.  --  Lesley Bludworth  Phoenix, AZ   7/2022 Sophie TWH mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749 View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 6a.   equithrive  From: LJ Friedman Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 23:22:42 CDT  i’m searching for a proper joint supplement. I still have not found something. Why was the equithrive  post locked? -- its very important  LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History  Jesse's Photos     View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic 7a.   Updated CH for Andante; could someone see if correct?  From: Alisa Martin Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 03:45:30 CDT  Well that's a relief. I had originally done my CH in Word for Mac and long ago Lee Ann had labored hard to fix my broken links. I have finally managed to redo the whole thing in Pages (now supported, hooray!) and upload as PDF. It only took me 4 yrs :(  Would one of you wonderful moderators take a quick glance and see if everything looks ok this time? If it's formatted and functioning correctly, then I'll start a new topic and ask my burning question :-) Thank you!! --  Alisa and Andante    San Diego County, CA 1/2014 Case History Photo album      View/Reply Online | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic   © 2022 Groups.io You are receiving this email because you are subscribed to main@ECIR.groups.io via addyprice@.... You can unsubscribe here.

--
Adrienne Williams in KY, 2022

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Adrienne%20and%20Wyatt 

Most EMS horses do not or cannot stop eating when they're full so usually diet has to be restricted for them, unless they're very low in the herd hierarchy and get moved away from the hay by the other horses.

I don't have enough experience with muzzles to recommend one, but searching the message archives here and on the Horsekeeping sub-group should bring up lots of older posts on muzzle recommendations.

I would have a TRH Stimulation test done in January to check for PPID.  It's very unlikely he has it, but if he does you need to treat it with pergolide, and the August ACTH was equivocal.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album