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Bugsy is sore :(


Judy and Bugsy
 

Hi All,

Arghhhh… I noticed yesterday that Bugsy seemed ‘off’ a bit and in the evening I saw him standing on the pile of straw/manure that I piled just out of his shelter.  When his feet are bothering him, he finds a soft spot and that’s where he stands.  He isn’t noticeably lame at a walk or trot.  Last night I put shipping wraps on him as it was suppose to drop to 4 degrees Celsius (39 F). And it also rained all day on Saturday and that night temperature fell to  -4C  (24.8 F).  This morning (Monday) I saw him do the ‘sore crossover’ on his fronts. L

 He tested positive for IR this spring and has been on soaked hay, balanced mineral, no grass dry lot, regular exercise, and regimented hoof trimming since – he’s been doing AWESOME! His spring test for Cushings came back negative but forum members suggested a retest.  Since he had no signs of Cushings, an opinion was given to get ACTH retested in the fall because his numbers ‘didn’t seem right’ and likely Bugsy’s samples experienced error in handling. My vet is hesitant to test for Cushings in the fall as he was instructed that the test results this time of year wouldn’t be a true reflection of Bugsy’s condition.  My vet is open to research indicating that testing in the fall will produce valid numbers but I’m having difficulty finding much research/info to support fall testing.

I found this article that explains a little about ACTH testing in the fall https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20and%20PPID/Blood%20Testing%20for%20Cushings%20-%20PPID/Seasonal%20Influences%20on%20ACTH/Liphook%20study:%20Pituitary%20Pars%20Intermedia%20Dysfunction.pdf


I can’t find anything else in the files.  Does anyone have more information that I can pass along to my vet? 

What else can I do until I can get Bugsy tested and results back?

Soooo disappointing... he was doing sooooo well.  :( 

Also a note to Lavinia - I posted cannon bone shot pictures to Bugsy's album. 


 

 

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Sherry Morse
 

Hi Judy,

Sorry Bugsy is sore.  You can send your vet this link as well as the information in the other Liphook article: https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf but there is no reason to not test now since most labs do offer a seasonally adjusted range for ACTH.  If he comes in at slightly higher than average you may want to consider using Prascend only during the rise but if he comes in at a grossly high level you have a pretty clear indication that PPID is an issue.

As always, you can fall back on the statement that it's your horse and your money and if you want him tested the vet should just test him but hopefully it won't come to that.




Nancy C
 

Hi Judy

First, based on those ambient temps, I'd be thinking about "Winter Laminitis"

As to Seasonal Rise, this is from Dr Kellon's NO Lamintis! Conference 2017 Lecture Acute Care for Endocrinopathic Laminitis

— Seasonal rise

Cutoff values for ACTH (Figure 1): Same group of individuals plotted by week as monthly chart shown previously.
Uncontrolled PPID or exaggerated seasonal rise can drive insulin higher. Liphook Equine Hospital in the UK tested more than 30,000 horses, both PPID and normal, to establish weekly normal cutoffs of ACTH values throughout the year. Because the above is unpublished data, age distribution is unknown. Lee, et al., 2010, also in the UK, found that older non-PPID horses may have a higher seasonal rise than young
horses. An older horse may go as high as 80 or 90 in the Fall and still not be PPID. 

If you download the lecture you can view the graph (Figure 1) which shows : ACTH cutoff values for every week of the year (Durham, 2016, unpublished data) with the dashed line indicating previously used monthly cutoff values (Copas and Durham, 2012).

Please note, the Copas and Durham 2012 study (link below) concludes
Plasma ACTH can be used for the diagnosis and monitoring of PPID throughout the year with the use of appropriate reference intervals. Thesefindings demonstrate an increase in pituitary gland secretory activity during the late summer and autumn in both normal and PPID cases

Here are links
https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S109002331000122X
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2011.00444

It may help to remind your vet it was a member of this group and her open-minded vet that found the effect of seasonal rise which led to these and other studies. When looking at a diagnosis, ECIR Group has always looked at the whole animal. This is why a Case History is so critical. I bet you know that.

Hope this helps.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Nancy C
 

Meant to add link to get Dr Kellon's 2017 conference lectures https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php

Also -- totally agree with Sherry.  It's your money. I have asked many a vet to humor me when I wanted something done, and never was sorry.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


hdavis
 

Hi Judy,

sorry to hear about Bugsy.  I feel your pain as have been through this with my horses and such a struggle...but this group has helped me immensely and my horses are still alive because of them.

In addition, the only thing I have to add is maybe ask your vet if Boehringer is offering free testing again this year for PPID?  I did this last year with my mare Riosa and it sure helps as always nice to have some costs offset.  I think they offer the program pretty regularly but haven’t heard about it yet for 2020, but might be worth the ask?

Thinking if you and Bugsy!
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .


Storm

Case History



photos

 
 

 




Judy and Bugsy
 

On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 12:55 PM, hdavis wrote:

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I may have pushed the panic button a bit fast since Bugsy was walking fine last night.  I took him into the arena and he trotted off like nothing! This morning he was laying down and got up when I went in his pen, took a big stretch and walked over to me with no ill steps.  I don’t drink but Bugsy may drive me to take up a new habit!! Lol.  In any case, I’m still planning on going ahead with the testing for Cushings, and trying to be prepared for freezing cold temperatures.

 I suppose a horse could be IR, have Cushings and have Winter Laminitis but I’m sure hoping that Bugsy stays just within the IR category.  Temperatures have warmed up a few degrees here plus he had wool socks, shipping boots and hoof boots on last night – plus the ground has dried up from the rain which I wonder if that affected him as well by softening his soles? If his soreness was related to the cooler temperatures of -4 Celsius, I’m going to have to get really creative to keep him sound when it is -40 degrees C.


A question regarding winter laminitis: if a horse’s circulation/nerves are compromised from previous cases of laminitis, are all 4 feet affected by the cold? Or just the feet that had laminitis?  I’m asking because I need to know if I have to order boots for his hind feet as well. 

 

Thanks Sherry.  I will definitely look into Prascend depending on the ACTH results.  Thanks for the link!

Great information Nancy!  Thank you so much for the links. 

Thanks Heather.  Will look at the testing through Boehringer.  These horses are suppose to be our stress relief not our causes of stress!  They are lucky we all love them so much! lol


 
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358