Conflicting information on peripheral loading


Anna Kulginova
 

I have been receiving quite conflicted information regarding if my pony should be weight bearing on her hoof walls or not.
I am quite worried for her since she is recovering/still sore from laminitis (the acute laminitis was about 8 weeks ago and want to check with you so that I do not proceed with her in the wrong way and make matters worse for her.

My temporary laminitis trimmer is an expert farrier that has been working and researching laminitis for a really long time, they go around the country to visit and help 20-30 laminitic horses each week, so they are seeing a ton of mild to really bad cases all the time.
Their diagnosis was that my pony could have had too much hoof wall removed/rasped away at a previous trim and that this is why she in not recovering as quickly as expected despite following vet advice and local laminitis protocols (I have also been following the protocols from ECIR).
That the hoof wall is now too thin to bear her weight and needs to grow back for her to get better.
I on the other hand have been under the impression that peripheral loading is not good for the horse and weight should be distributed between sole, frogs etc and only a small amount should be carried by the hoof walls.
Especially for horses with long toes, creating leverage that is not wanted.

I am really unsure about the information I have received now, since I have been working with my usual barefoot trimmer towards a better hoof shape, shortening the toes to follow the coffin bone and trying to adjust her broken back angles.
And now it feels like I have been told that that trim was not optimal for my pony :(.

My pony has been shod for almost all of her life as far as I know (have owned her 5 years, she is 13).
Could the trimmer be meaning that we have tried changing the hoof shape too quickly or in a way that my pony has had a hard time handling/adjusting to?

I am really worried about the fact that I now have had to leave her already very long hooves just getting longer for almost 2 trim cycles, per the laminitis trimmers directions.
They were out a while back (it was 5 weeks after a regular trim), cut off a bit of toe and said that they would come back after 5 weeks more and do a corrective trim.
it will be 10 weeks since the latest trim when the trimmer comes back.

After I received the trimmers diagnosis I decided to cast her hooves with flexible wrap and just trim off a bit of bar and clean the frog a bit since they were starting to look quite bad after the long pause in trimming and her feet really needed a rest from her boots.
After casting and the small clean up her step became slightly quicker but she comes up quite lame on LF after standing still on hard surfaces, she is still apparently quite sore on all hooves.
LF is also the one that looks the worst on the Xrays.
If it were her hoof walls that were the problem; shouldn't her gait and pain levels have improved quite a bit after casting (I have learned that casting mainly helps with thin hoof walls)?

I am at quite a loss at who to listen to and how to continue treating my pony right now.
Hoof images including last time the trimmer was out and the last trim from my usual trimmer can be found here.
--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


 

Hi Anna,
I can’t really comment on what the laminitis trimmer is expressing as I’m just learning about this topic myself.  Two things I’ve read here repeatedly are ‘don’t let the trimmer touch the bottom of the horse’s feet’ and ‘don’t hesitate to rasp down the toes yourself between trims’.  I know that eventually you will need to address the hoof bottoms but you’ll be safer not to touch them too soon.  To rasp off the toes a bit, it would be helpful to put the foot on a block but it sounds like you have some experience here.

To make the hoof wall thinner, I would think the wall would need be rasped around the outside, rather than off the edge, which I don’t really see, but that may be a misunderstanding on my part due our language difference.  I’m sure Lavinia will be along at some point to offer better guidance.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Anna Kulginova
 
Edited

Thank you, yes it is the same info I have received from all other sources regarding barefoot horses.
Leave the sole and rasp toes between trims.
I guess that is partly why I am so confused because I received directions to not touch her walls until the laminitis trimmer said they would come back in 5 weeks.

My guess is that the laminitis trimmer was commenting on how the hoof looked when these photos were taken:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/265964/3263311?p=Name,,,20,2,40,0

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/265964/3263311?p=Name,,,20,2,40,0

My "usual" trimmer did take away quite a bit from the outside/ 90 degrees to the sole plane that time.
I usually go in and do a "mustang roll" afterwards from the bottom and try to continue keeping the toes short.
But this time laminitis struck instead :(.
I am just not really sure that the info I received from the laminitis trimmer is correct and that this could be the source of her soreness. 

--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Anna Kulginova
 

Just to clarify (since I have not found how you can edit posts):

I am not sure that the info I received from the lami trimmer is correct when they said that thin hoof walls could be the problem for my pony.

--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I will let Lavinia answer your hoof questions in detail but the toes need to come back quite a bit.  With or without the walls out of weightbearing she would need boot and pad protection. Has she ever abscessed?

Without lab work or sugar and starch levels on your haylage it's impossible to comment on a possible metabolic component to ongoing pain.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Anna Kulginova
 

Thank you, I understand that evaluation is not possible without a full hay test.
Our haylage from last year is almost gone, just a couple of bales left and we will start opening bales from this years harvest very soon.
I will send the new hay to Equi analytical for testing starch and NSC this time.

Here in Sweden there is no lab that tests hay for starch and the standard is that as long as WSC is low NSC is supposed to not be higher that WSC.
We really are quite a bit behind on knowledge around laminitis, hooves and feed but I think it is getting better with time :).

--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Anna Kulginova
 

She has never abscessed to my knowledge but she did have very suspicious looking hoof cracks parallel to the ground at the same height on all four feet a couple of years ago.
The vet ruled it out as most likely mechanical trauma since the cracks appeared on all four feet at the same time.
--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

NSC could never be higher than WSC.  The real issue though is the fractions that influence insulin.  That is ESC and starch.  WSC could be an issue in hind gut laminitis (not metabolic) and that's possible in your northern areas with something like ryegrass but even so it's never been proven to occur.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Anna,

You are going to have opposing viewpoints, unfortunately, and I suggest following the one that makes the most sense to you.  If something feels wrong to you, trust yourself.  Your laminitis trimmer/farrier might be an expert but his methods are not what we have seen here at ECIR to work long-term.  Frequent trims, removing walls from load-bearing and supporting from below with pads and boots is what we think will give your horse their best chance at recovery.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Anna
Following up on Kirsten’s comment, I would add that I think it’s important to ask your horse about whatever ‘method’ you use. Not just her soundness level, but her stance, her demeanour, whatever her particular ‘happiness meter’ shows. Is she improving even if slowly, or is she seeming less comfortable as time passes? You know her best. If the horse says one thing and the human expert says the opposite, the human is wrong. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Anna Kulginova
 

On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 03:36 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
NSC could never be higher than WSC.  The real issue though is the fractions that influence insulin.  That is ESC and starch.  WSC could be an issue in hind gut laminitis (not metabolic) and that's possible in your northern areas with something like ryegrass but even so it's never been proven to occur.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Thank you for this info! I will really make sure to get a hold of an ESC and starch analysis for the next haylage lot.
 --
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Anna Kulginova
 

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Hi Anna,

You are going to have opposing viewpoints, unfortunately, and I suggest following the one that makes the most sense to you.  If something feels wrong to you, trust yourself.  Your laminitis trimmer/farrier might be an expert but his methods are not what we have seen here at ECIR to work long-term.  Frequent trims, removing walls from load-bearing and supporting from below with pads and boots is what we think will give your horse their best chance at recovery.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
Thank you for this input. 
The more I am learning and reading the more I feel that removing walls from load bearing and taking care of the temporary discomfort that brings is what is going to help long term.
I would love to be able to do her trims myself since then I could get instant feedback from my horse on what is working and not and also be able to take a little at a time, but I am just not knowledgeable enough.
Right now the plan is to let the laminitis farrier trim her next Friday since they are already booked and then go back to my usual trimmer as soon as absolutely possible after that. 
It is not going to be easy to actually relay this to the laminitis farrier though, but I will have to persevere. Hopefully they say that Diva is looking OK enough for the usual trimmer to take over.

--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album


Anna Kulginova
 

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 01:42 PM, Maxine McArthur wrote:
Hi Anna
Following up on Kirsten’s comment, I would add that I think it’s important to ask your horse about whatever ‘method’ you use. Not just her soundness level, but her stance, her demeanour, whatever her particular ‘happiness meter’ shows. Is she improving even if slowly, or is she seeming less comfortable as time passes? You know her best. If the horse says one thing and the human expert says the opposite, the human is wrong. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Thank you.
That is really sound advice!
We have had a bumpy barefoot road.
My farrier got burnt out and was doing an increasingly bad job on my pony for the past year. 
After that we went barefoot with our barefoot trimmer in march and Diva has been really great, she was moving so well, seemed to be happy when the shoes first came off.
But she has been footy in her turn out on and off and then had her first laminitis episode. 
I just don't have enough data to decide if she was doing better as a whole since she was steadily OK when in shoes, improved a lot for a while when barefoot but then got laminitis.
Time heals all wound I guess, right now she is improving a tiny, tiny bit each day but I am kind of dreading the next and coming trims!
 
--
/Anna
Sweden, 2021

Diva Case History
Diva Photo Album