Devil’s Claw dosage for mini
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My Moonie is really struggling right now. I’m at the point to consider euthanasia but wanted to give Devils Claw a chance. May I ask the dosage of DC for a 290# mini? I just uploaded case files. I’m trying to keep him warm but seem to be failing.
-- Kristie Brand 2010 Arcanum, Ohio https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristie%20and%20Moonie/Moonie%20Case%20History.pdf https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Boo%20Case%20History.pdf |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Kristie, Are you sure he's having an issue with winter laminitis vs. an abscess? Do you have him in boots, socks, shipping boots, a blanket? How is his trim? As you started giving him J herb and he was laminitic last year he could be mobilizing an abscess which can be more painful than actual laminitis. Are you feeding him 2lbs of hay PLUS 6 pounds of timothy balance cubes? If 290 is his ideal weight (which it may not be as you indicate he's a 6 BCS at 290) he should be eating no more than 5.8lbs a day TOTAL. As the timothy balance cubes are meant to be fed at 3:4 ratio to hay if that's all he's eating he should be eating no more than 4.35lbs of them a day. If he's overweight getting him on a tighter diet ASAP will possibly help with elevated insulin, although it will not help with pain due to an abscess or the winter laminitis issues if that's what is going on.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Thank you for your reply. He is in excellent weight so he has that on his side. I simply feed.2% body weight. He gets 3 # of TCTBC overnight. That’s to give him something to do fo 9-10 hours overnight. His other 3 # is split into 3 separate feedings throughout the day. He’s extremely depressed since starting Thyro L and taking away all hay. DDT is tight. Thyro L was a Hail Mary to get insulin down on both. I realize my senior bw did not include thyroid. He’s in boots with pads, neck warmer, polar fleece and heavy winter blanket and leg warmers.
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Hi Kristie, Don’t forget that if you feel you have a need we can’t address here, a hands on inspection by a vet might be in order. It sounds like he is well protected from the cold. The temps in Vermont will be much more comfortable tomorrow so I assume yours are increasing as well. I don’t have personal experience with laminitis related abscesses but I gather they are extremely painful and obviously would rarely affect both front feet the same. NSAIDs will slow their resolution but circulation enhancement might well speed it up. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Kristie, As Martha's already mentioned we don't see Thyro-L have an effect on insulin although it will help jump start weight loss. Also, as the cubes are meant to be fed at a 3:4 ratio to the amount of hay being fed you're feeding too much right now and that can cause an issue. Is he still on Metformin? Did the dose get corrected after you asked about it last year? Do you have current x-rays or trim pictures you can post?
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Am I understanding that I am feeding too much? I give him about a # at a time because I firmly believe he, or any horse, cannot go without forage. For hours and hours. He is under strict veterinary care and he is in excellent weight. I will be able to get a body picture this week when we have a warm up. I got no help with the Metformin last year so it was discontinued. Both my minis insulin doubled while on it. I hated starting the Thyro L. It went against everything I felt. The vets a week ago made it sound like it was all my fault their insulin was under not under control because I didn’t give the Thyro L last year and instead went with the Metformin. He doesn’t need weight loss, confirmed by 3 vets several times over the last year, and last Friday the vet saw him for the 3rd time in a month. He had his chiropractor and acupuncture done and I told the vet he was starting to refuse meals and had become quite lethargic since starting the Thyro L. |
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Moonie has monthly inspections from vets. His weight is currently the only issue I don’t worry about! I didn’t want to give him Thyro L. It goes against everything I believe in unless there is clearly a thyroid issue. Desperate people do desperate things when in panic mode. Soaked hay is not an option. If given soaked hay both go anorexic on me and will not touch it, even if it is the only option. I caved after 2 days of starvation and stuck with cubes. |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Kristie, For feeding the Timothy Balance Cubes only, yes you are feeding more than the recommended amount. As far as the Metformin, from what I saw in looking through the old messages both ponies were not getting enough to control their insulin. If your hay is tested and under 10% ESC+starch have you tried feeding it unsoaked?
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Hi Kristie,
We really want to help you sort this out, hang in there! To answer your original question about Devil's Claw, this post is quite helpful: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/272774 10g once or twice a day is for a ~1000lb horse, so I would suggest starting with 3 grams 1 or 2 times a day for your mini of pure Devil's Claw powder (not extract). Extracts are more concentrated and dosed accordingly. Keep in mind that it's more for pain relief due to arthritis rather than laminitis, although it could help him feel better overall. Idealy, meals will be fed 4-6 hrs apart. That's how long it takes for the stomach and small intestine to empty. So, after finishing 1 meal, he can theoretically go 4-6 hours before his body enters a fasting state. But if his body condition is good (4.5-5 / 9), then I'd be questioning why he's eating so much and is not overweight. Moonie's Metformin dose should have been 4000 mg, twice a day (not split), for a total of 8000 mg. The correct dose really does make a difference. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Sherry, hay tested at 10.5% and balanced by a member when I pulled them off the majority of cubes and tried mostly hay mid late summer. I didn’t soak it though and didn’t weigh everything like I do with the cubes. I do know that eating unsoaked hay has always helped with his mental health. I am due to have more bloodwork pulled to check insulin and glucose levels again in 2 weeks. They wanted to check after being on Thyro L for a month. I’m just sick over giving in to it. I’m really upset over the wrong dosage of Metformin.
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Kirsten, he really isn’t overweight. I will post body pictures in a few days when it’s warm enough to strip him of a layer. The Thyro L they threw at him strictly for decreasing insulin and not weight loss. I have eliminated the small amount of timothy pellets as of last night. I will give them just 5 # daily. We grow our own hay but, unfortunately, are at the mercy of the farmers who cut and bale it. I’ve offered more $ to bale on my timeline instead of theirs but have never been able to get it done on a cloudy morning. |
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Hi Kristie,
Think of it this way . From Maya Angelou . "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better." -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario 2002 |
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Agreed, Lorna!
Kristie, can you find some different hay? 10.5% is too high to feed them unsoaked, I'm sorry to say, unless your minnies are ploughing the fields every day. I'm rushing off to work right now and don't remember the details of your situation, but even putting them 100% on Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance cubes would help their insulin. Can you try that with Moonie to see how he responds? -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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