Fergus progress weight loss photo


Jennifer Green
 

It’s been a few weeks since our last photo update. I keep looking at this and wondering why he looks better in some ways, but also like he’s got a belly again. One thought I had I’d that he’s lost some more and this is the next piece to go. I didn’t tape him (because he wanted his lunch) but based on the girth, I don’t think he’s any heavier. I just want to make sure we’re still headed in the right direction. 


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/266236/3317071?p=pcreated%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Of all the recent photos, he looks the lightest in right side from 9/12 but camera angle and lighting can be deceptive. Try to always take your photos with the sun behind your back and camera centered mid rib cage. It would also be helpful to always move his mane to the opposite side when taking a photo.

Body condition scoring is the most helpful https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Case%20History%20Tools/Tools%20and%20How-To%20Help/Body%20Condition%20Scoring%20Guide.pdf and that can't be done as accurately from a photo as a hands-on exam.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

Hi, Jennifer.
He looks substantially crestier to me now and a bit bigger bellied. I'm looking at the angle of his barrel from the heart girth back to his sheath. I watch that angle as a close indicator for my PPID mares. Here's a reminder of what's normal for a non-EMS horse:
https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/images/Animal%20Ag/moderate.jpg 

When you shoot these photos from the side, make sure his neck is relaxed and as level as it can be. He's a stout little guy with a short, thick neck, so it might not make a huge difference. But if he has any crest at all, raising his head even a little makes the crest more prominent.

If he looks crestier to you too, it's time to review carbs in his diet and any changes in his exercise that might be triggering higher insulin. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
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Jennifer Green
 

So interestingly we haven’t changed diet at all. He’s still get soaked hay and even getting it at breakfast now (because the new hay was too high in sugar). He’s still getting lots of rigorous exercise too. Of late his energy level has been up too. This is the biggest change I’ve noticed, but I figured it was because of cooler temps and crisp air. He’s been moving great and he’s been fabulous to ride. I’m not sure why he would be putting weight back on again.  Uuugh 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Jennifer Green
 

I can still feel ribs, but I wonder why he’s be gaining again :(
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

*If* he's putting weight on again (can't tell for sure from photos), it's not dramatic. Everything you mention sounds very good so go by your weight tape measurements and body condition score. Even more important though is fatty deposits, fat above the eyes, fatty neck crest.  If he's hit a plateau on weight loss, it's not the end of the world.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Jennifer Green
 

I will weight tape and do the formula tomorrow. I did look at his sheath today and it looked normal, but he has had some recent eye discharge (this week). He also him got a cut right below his eye so again I was thinking that was why and hoping it wasn’t insulin related.  His crest direct seem hard and I didn’t notice his eyes being puffy.  I guess I will see what the tape says tomorrow.

I was debating having his leptin / insulin levels tested again this month, but I think I should schedule it to see where we are at. 

--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


 

Is the 'new hay' higher in calories??
 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Jennifer Green
 

I feel like an idiot asking this, but what value do I look at for calories? 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Jennifer Green
 

Its so frustrating. When I rode him today he did raised ground  poles and jumped little cross rails. He worked hard, lots of canter, and felt fabulous, he got sweaty, but was never out of breath. He wanted to go and go today..I can tell he’s feeling the fall air. Then later on, I saw him running around with his paddock pals.  I know he probably need to be ploughing fields 6 hours a day, but I do my best to keep him fit.  This pony is going to give me all sorts of gray hair!!  
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


 
Edited

If checking insulin isn’t a hardship, I like that idea. But I’d wait another couple of weeks and see how his body condition looks first. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
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Edited

P. S. I’m thrilled to hear he’s feeling good and energetic. That’s important! The smallest changes in camera angle can make a difference in what the lens sees. If that’s how  he feels, I would wait another week or two and check a body shot then before checking labs. I posted before reading your post. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Jennifer,

You're doing just fine! Exercise is the best thing for them. Weight plateaus happen for horses too - not that he's actually fat. Just be patient.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 02:55 PM, Jennifer Green wrote:
feel like an idiot asking this, but what value do I look at for calories? 
Calories are calculated as Digestible Energy measured as Mcal/lb on your full hay analyses. One Mcal = 1000 calories. 

On this analysis, DE is .89. So the latest hay analysis does have higher DE of .95. The difference in calories when you're feeding only 12 pounds a day isn't very much. Just keep it in the back of your mind when you check Fergus' body condition in a couple or 4 weeks.
 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
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Jennifer Green
 

I see it! So the new hay is higher 0.95 new vs. 0.89 old which is actually a 6.3% increase in calories. Although at first glance this seems negligible; thinking of it in terms of lbs of hay per day. If his weight is 750 lb and he gets 1.5% of that in hay weight per day or 11.5 lb (+\~), if I reduce that amount 6.3%, it actually is about a pound less…oh boy. 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


 

Hi, Jennifer,
We can't feed by Mcal alone. It's a good marker BUT Equines require a certain minimum of roughage for digestive health. You're already close to 1.5% of his current weight. Especially with ponies, care is required in calorie restriction for weight loss because of the risk of hyperlipidemia. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Hyperlipidemia/Hyperlipidemia%20--%20basic%20info%20by%20Dr.%20Kellon.%20Kellon.pdf 

The way we reduce weight of hay fed is to reduce body weight. So once his current weight drops to 725 pounds, then you can reduce the amount you feed daily to 1.5% of that weight. Slow and steady.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Jennifer Green
 

I weight taped him today and he was still 910 on the tape but 725 using the formula. Who knows!  I also updated his case history since there have been some new adds based on our hay balancing results.  The good news is he doesn’t appear to have put on weight. The bad news is, it does seem like he’s has hit weight loss plateau. But he looks much better than he did in May and he seems to be feeling good (was running around bucking and squealing today having a great time on his day off) so I’m trying to focus on what we have accomplished but also to stay vigilant . 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

What is his total daily Mcal intake?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

I balanced Jennifer's hay for her.  The Mcal count in the new hay is 11.4.

Carol Broyles 
Spring Valley,  Ohio 
August 2007


Jennifer Green
 

Hi Dr. Kellon, here’s what I came up with: 

12 lb Hay*** = 11.4 Mcal
1 cup (weighed 5.5 oz) Teff Grass Pellets** = 0.325 Mcal
1.5 carrots* = 0.150 Mcal
2 TBSP fenugreek powder = 0.072 Mcal
Safe Treats* = 1 Mcal
Total ~ 13 Mcal per Day

* = Estimated
** = Info from EquiAnalytical report I found in feed folder
*** = Hay is soaked all meals (not sure that impacts calories much) 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album