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Hay Analysis and Invokana question


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi I have my final hay analysis uploaded. All loaded 2021.

Have a question...the orchard is by far the best option esc+starch for Vinnie unfortunately they only had 27 bales left of this, so I purchased it all and am pulling a test in another orchard they have. The iron is higher (391) than I had hoped on the orchard. The orchard timothy comes in at 10.1 esc +starch but the iron is 170 which is way better.

Which is worse high iron in the hay that is probably dust or higher esc plus starch in insulin?

Also what is fog burn on hay? Can it effect analysis and should I ask for other specific tests? 

The blue string orchard I plan on testing came from an area that had smoke, as most of no cal did. Does that effect hayas well?

Invokana question: is there a best time of day to give invokana?

Thx Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 If you're willing to soak, go for the lower iron. Otherwise, retest the high iron after thorough shaking or dunking (whichever  can be done each feeding) then balance accordingly.

Fog burn is when a hay is baled too wet, e.g. in morning fog, and supports bacterial growth which produces heat and can turn the hay brown. This can also be followed by heavy mold growth. It could also refer to hay that got heavy dew and had to be left out to dry longer, bleaching it.

 Main effect of the smoke would be to block the sun to some extent which would lower sugar.

People are encouraged to take it before the first meal of the day but if your diet is low S/S it doesn't matter.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Firstqualityhay@...
 

Hi Nan,

i cant speak to the hay analysis, however, I have never heard of “fog burn”. Sometimes the tips of grass hay will brown if frost nips them.  Other times the tips of hay can brown when herbicide is applied.  Sometimes the tips will turn brown as heat and drier weather set-in after first cutting - going into a second cutting.  Many times, for some hay producers, when the tips start turning brown or showing signs of it - that is the trigger to cut hay.  IMHO timothy is more prone to the tips browning than fescue or orchard grass as it is not very heat tolerant.  One year, I had an entire field of climax timothy turn brown in the heat and dry weather.  I thought for sure the stand was dead, but to my relief, it came back in cooler/rainy September, else I was going to have to replant.

Does the brown tips effect the hay analysis technically I’d say yes.  However, hard to know the extent since one is taking an average of core samples for the hay analysis.  If anything, I would think it would lower the sugar content a tad, but the ratio of brown tips to the overall volume of hay - pretty small for us.

Most of my hay customers could care less about hay analysis, they are interested above all else in, clean, green, soft hay - preferring second cut.  I jokingly say that most of my hay customers try to feed what they would eat if they were a horse, hence the green, clean, 2nd cut, etc.  Brown tips in hay cause concern amongst these customers because green, not green and brown, is king.

Long...

Rambling...

All the best!

Bill
--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com


Firstqualityhay@...
 

Dr. Kellon,

Thanks for the info on fog burn.

I can’t imagine baling hay before the dew burns off completely or go to late in the evening as the dew sets-in.  We use a baler mounted moisture meter that gives us “live” readings of the hay moisture, however you can always tell as the moisture goes up as one bales and hay producers should know too - just from experience.  First thing is the bales get really heavy.  But also you can hear it.  The baler works the tractor harder with every plunger stroke and when the tires begin showing signs of moisture it’s generally time to stop.  Unless we use hay preservative as we bale, heavy bales usually dust-up.  I don’t see much in brown caramelized hay, but my advice to hay buyers, if you are loading out hay and you encounter an abnormally heavy bale, it probably has some dust/heating potential.  Sometimes these bales come from a small shaded area along a field.  It probably doesn’t hurt, but if you are loading or unloading your trailer/truck, don’t necessarily gently set the bales off, but throw them down.  Often times when there is dust, it will poof off the bale when it hits the ground.  We don’t typically load hay (there are liability reasons for this), but do throw it down from the stack.  We keep a keen eye on the bale for potential dust.  I would recommend the customer do the same.

Thanks again!
Bill
--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks Dr Kellon and Bill,

The blue twine orchard thst there are a few stacks of od the fog burn smoke hay,, is pretty brown but I am going to get an analysis in it. I am hoping maybe that comes back lower in Iron.

I will retest the orange twine orchard for iron. I am pretty sure it is dust. I have purchased 27 bales of that but they would let me swap for the blue twine.

Question about dunking and managing wet hay.  Let's say I dunked at night and it was held in a 25 gallon bucket for feeding the next am.. is there concern or fermentation, etc? I imagine summer months worse than winter here in Oakley where I live.. We are in the 30's at night now but Summer can be 110 during the day.

I can shake the night before so I suppose that is a test I need to perform. If I dunk i have to be sure I can be consistent.

Hay is soooooo much more complex than I ever knew.. :)

I really like the tomothy/orchard and am tempted to keep Summer on that and just figure out a plan for Vinnie. Soaking would be an option but hard to manage long term in boarding situation.

Today will be day 4 on Invokana, vinnienhas mentally improved..much less grumpyhe was a bit more tender footed yday in the am, but in the evening I turned him our and soft footing he walked around and went and played with the mounting block at the other end of the arena...he hasn't done that in forever!!!!

On the hard ground he was still a bit tender..hoping that resolved soon. We are having a trim today he is at 5 weeks now so that could be part of it.

We also get labs today :)

I stopped prascend the same day we started invokana and he is almost back to normal eating..he is much more eager when he sees me with his food and has finished his odbtc cubes both am and pm and minerals for the last two days.  

I had stopped UG same day we started invokana.

Lots more to do :) but it feels like we may be making some progress.

Once I get the latest analysis for hay I will upload.

Thanks Nan

--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Follow up about fog burn, this is the blue twine orchard..would that not be optimal hay or should I test it anyway to see? Do I need to add anything to the test to look for molds?
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Have you seen this hay? Does it look green? Do the bales seem unusually heavy? The best way to assess it is to buy a bale and open it to check aroma and for "dust"/mold, matting together of the flakes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

They gave me two bales so I could check it out and I planned on coring them for a sample analysis.  I didn't open it yet but it is fairly brown..I would say the outside of the bales is more brown than green all around.  They did say they could pull some middle bales for me to check out as well. I think it is a dusty too.

I can take some pics today when I head to the barn this morning.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If it was "burned" in the field before baling and was properly dried, mold shouldn't  be an issue. You will need to supplement vitamin A.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

If I am using foundation formula would that suffice or will I need more vit a?

I will core for analysis today too. 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Nancy,

If there is some green left in the hay and it was cut in 2020 I would supplement 20,000 IU vit A, in contact with oil (human capsules are fairly cheap and usually have soybean oil in them)...this is what is recommended when hay reaches 6 months old anyways.  If the hay is all brown, I would supplement 40,000 IU vit A (this is what is recommended when hay is over 1 year old).  These numbers are based on Dr. Kellon's recommendations in ECIR.

The toxic dose of vit A is about 136,000 IU for a 1000 lb horse, so you'll want to ensure your supplement doesn't have extremely high levels of vit A, too, but there is a large safety margin between 40K and 136K.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Quick question, should I wait to give his invokana today or is it appropriate to give the meds before labs?  Blood pull will be in about an hour.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


 

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 07:56 AM, Nancy & Vinnie & Summer wrote:
Question about dunking and managing wet hay.  Let's say I dunked at night and it was held in a 25 gallon bucket for feeding the next am.. is there concern or fermentation, etc? I imagine summer months worse than winter here in Oakley where I live.. We are in the 30's at night now but Summer can be 110 during the day.
Hi, Nancy. I wouldn't store wet hay in anything other than a hay net hung out where there is good air flow, such as in the shade in my breezeway barn. It's okay if the hay dries after rinsing and before feeding. Here, hay stored in a garbage  can -- without air circulation -- can spoil, mold or ferment after it gets damp from rain mist or dripping fog.
 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

So I opened  the blue twined hay today after taking a sample and id is pretty brown throughout the bale and is very very dusty. It doesn't smell bad, but it doesn't smell good either...there is a dusty odd smell to it. When I touch the flake a plume of dust comes off and the sample from the corer pulled in a tin of dust.  I feel like I would be wasting my money if I sent in a sample for analysis on this hay?

Uploaded images now.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Definitely skip that hay.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I found a couple more orchard options that I will be sending samples on. I am pretty hopeful about these two.

I will update when I have the tests back.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104