Tina Beck

My horses don't have access to hay/ food from about 9:30pm (I feed haynet at 8pm- which last until about 9:30) until about 4am in the morning.
if I feed more hay ( e.g two Hay nets to last longer) they would get more than 2% of their desired body weight.
I know from personal/ human experiance that getting into " starving mode " is NOT healthy- just as overeating is not.
Any suggestions?

Rani in NY 2022

Lorna Cane

Hi Rani,

I don't know the size of the holes in your net,but in my experience 1 1/2 " is the largest to try (hockey net).Even that is too large for some horses,so it can be doubled up with another net,or smaller netting can be purchased,maybe even already made up. Some horses do well with /require  1/2" holes.

Lorna in Eastern Ontario

Lorna Cane

PS .
Sorry, not sure if you are Tina or Rani. Maybe I should have said," Hi Tina."?
Lorna in Eastern Ontario

Kirsten Rasmussen

Overnight is the toughest time.  Ideally they should go no more than 4 to 6 hours after finishing a meal and before starting a meal, so if you can feed 4x a day every 6 hrs you're golden.  Realistically, unless you have them at home and only need 6 hrs sleep at night, it's very hard to make that work.

I feed 2/3 of the hay ration overnight to try and reduce the time without hay.  I also use a 1" hay net (that my horse has mastered), so if I feed it all in 2 hay nets at 6pm, he's done both by 10 pm.  Since he's at home, sometimes I'll give his second half of the overnight ration right before I go to bed at 10 or 11, but he's still done a couple hours later and breakfast isn't until 8am.  This year I bought myself a gate timer for Xmas, so it can block off an area where his second hay net is hung, and can set it to open at 1230am, halfway between supper and breakfast feedings.  I had a jerry-rigged gate timer a couple years ago and it was amazing to see that he wasn't ravenously hungry in the morning anymore!  It stopped working after a few months though and after trying and failing to repair it I gave up and I didn't replace it until this year with a proper setup.

I got my new one from Teeter Farm Tech.  It runs off 4 AA batteries and can be electrified if your horse challenges it.  I will be setting it up tonight for the first trial run.

Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Snickers' Case History
Snickers' Photo Album

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

That's not starving. It takes 4 to 6 hours after finishing the meal to have it enter the large intestine. Once in the large intestine, the  work of fermenting the hay to release more calories begins.
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  BOGO 2 for 1 Course Sale Through End of January
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."

Tina Beck

I have 1.25 hole nets- . I have a track-system on  my 2 Acre backyard , during day I put tiny lil piles along the way so they all get  exercise.
Been thinking about how to rig something that gets them foot 1/2 way thru the night...automatic gate sound like an awesome idea.

Thanks for everything- am at beginning of IR/ cushings education...sooo many questions:)


Rani in NY 2022

Trisha DePietro

Hi Tina. Your first post triggers a welcome letter for you that is loaded with information about the cornerstones of the protocol. Specifically, the welcome letter reviews the diagnosis, diet, trim and exercise ( if the equine is able). Also, within each area, you will find blue links that will take you deeper into the subject matter. There is lots of information on the messages and in the files. You can utilize the search box at the top of this forum to pull up information...and we are also here to answer your questions as they arise. 

Dr. Kellon already addressed your concerns about feeding hay at night. For what its worth, if its really cold, I split the night ration into to hay nets...they get one around 8 and one around 11 pm...that usually keeps them busy most of the night. I only feed extra when its super cold and extensively cold for several days in a row. I feed early in the morning, usually, around 6-7 am. So they are very happy with that.  After reading through our information, if you have any more questions, please post them here on the forum. 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.


DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.


There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
Primary Responder
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993     

Sharon Bice

Wow, I love this idea! Thanks so much for sharing your creativity and Happy New Year, Kirsten - thanks for all your help this year and your team’s!
Sharon Bice
December 2020    Sandia Park, New Mexico

Taillight's Case History:  

Taillight's Photo Album: