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Help! I need a Safe Feed that doesnt have beet pulp in it!

suzarkr@...
 

Knight cant have hay. Dentist say NO hay. Ive been feeding him alfalfa pellets and lmf low carb complete. He was doing ok until I tried to take him off the alf pellets. I added r/s/r beet pulp (very small amount), and his stools got loose. I stopped the beet pulp and things got normal again. Then I started phasing out the alfalfa and giving him more of the lmf. Stools got loose again. Then I got some Wellsolve, just to add to the lmf so he would eat it. He has recieved less than  1 lb per day and now we have cow pies!!!
Im convinced it is the beet pulp in these feeds. 
What can I feed him, safely, that doesnt have beet pulp in it?
Thanks!
Im in central california (Sacramento area)

--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Unless things have changed from your history, his insulin, glucose and ACTH levels are bigger issues than cow pies but getting back to that, try grass hay pellets of ODTB/TC Naturals Timothy Balance.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

suzarkr@...
 

Thanks Eleanor, Yes, I know we have bigger issues. I tried raising his pergolide and he "veiled", so I had to back off to 4mg. Now that he is eating again I will be increasing that back up to 5mg.
The cow pies are a new thing, Im sure diet related, so I was looking for some other options. Thank you.

--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

celestinefarm
 

Susan,
I understand your dilemma with not being able to feed hay. Someone earlier gave you a link to a teff hay pellet that was produced by a company in Oregon.   The only other choices would be grass hay pellets, timothy or orchard grass from Standlee or from Ontario Dehy through their Triple Crown dealers. I wouldn't try hay stretchers, virtually all of them have molasses in them, along with alfalfa. 
Something to consider.  Knight has been on SMZ tabs for two weeks and has likely had a lot of gut bacteria killed off. When you changed feeds, what  little gut bacteria he has , IMO, can't handle the new feed type, including the beet pulp. Personally, if he were mine, I would wait to change feeds from his alfalfa pellets, ( yes, I know you were recommended to change off of alfalfa, but you have a lot of problems to try to corral at the moment,) and lmf  until he has completed his course of anitbiotics and you can get his gut repopulated again. IF you are going to use a probiotic, get a good one, preferably with boulaardi in it and start slowly with working him up to a full dose. You may want to consider adding psyllium , again starting slowly, to his feed to complement the probiotic/prebiotic. Uckele has a good one, Absorb All and their plain Psyllium powder. Once he is producing good formed manure again, then try slowly replacing his alfalfa pellets with either teff, or timothy pellets. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

MPA Justa Tstar
 

My PPID/IR gelding eats NuZu Stabul1. I believe it is soy based. It is a guaranteed analysis feed and is mineral balanced. You can even get it through Tractor Supply or via their ( Nuzu Feed’s) online store. Good luck!! 

gypsylassie
 

Oops, that first empty post was sent by mistake.
Nuzu Stabul 1 contains soy hulls without the soy beans themselves and beet pulp, which are both safe for our IR horses. It also does have some soybean meal, but I don't think it's a main component.  It's a nice, safe feed as part of an IR diet and my boy loves all the flavors.
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


On Sep 8, 2019, at 3:20 AM, gypsylassie <lcknie@...> wrote:




On Sep 7, 2019, at 11:01 PM, MPA Justa Tstar via Groups.Io <Adrienne.briant@...> wrote:

My PPID/IR gelding eats NuZu Stabul1. I believe it is soy based. It is a guaranteed analysis feed and is mineral balanced. You can even get it through Tractor Supply or via their ( Nuzu Feed’s) online store. Good luck!! 

Kelly Schwartz
 

I’ve been able to find soy hull pellets at a local feed mill, $10 for a 50 lb sack.


--
Kelly and Mia
Dubois, WY, USA
May 2018

Photos ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=48471 )

Case History
( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Mia )

suzarkr@...
 

Thanks Dawn,
I cant get the teff pellets here. The only Standlee products that are less than 10% nsc are the alfalfa pellets and the timothy alfalfa cubes. I asked my equine dentist and he says Knight can have the cubes if they are soaked.
Im not changing anything right now. He is done with the antibiotics. Ive got him back on the alfalfa pellets and lmf 50/50. I will give him a week, then I will start raising his pergolide back up to 5mg. Ive got APF plus now, so I think we will be ok. With the seasonal rise I think getting his ACTH under control will be my first goal. Then I will address the alfalfa. Im not even sure its a problem for him. He was doing great. The only reason we (my vet and I) decided to try and take him off it was because he was getting  a little bit ouchy walking on rocks. Now I believe its more due to the Cushings and IR relationship, rather than feed. We will see. 
I will get him back up to 5mg and re-evaluate.

--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

celestinefarm
 

Susan,
Sounds like a good plan. One of the problems with changing several things at once is that you don't know what is causing a side effect, what isn't doing anything, and what is working, LOL. We have all done this, especially when a horse starts to have pain, goes off feed, drops weight, gains crest, etc.  We get desperate to find what works and works right now, and so we blast a bunch of different things trying to hit the right antidote immediately.  Highly recommend considering using Ontario dehy timothy balance cubes when you get to the point of wanting to switch to cubes.  They soak into a soft mush within ten to fifteen minutes, although they do have beet pulp in them. What I don't like about the cubes from Standlee is that they contain bentonite , it makes the cubes from Standlee hard like rocks, needing hours of soaking . ( Standlee ships cubes to countries such as Japan and the middle east, and the bentonite keeps them in cube form when being shipped in giant half ton sacks. ) Triple Crown can provide you with premium timothy or timothy alfalfa from Ontario Dehy, who doesn't use bentonite, and the cubes are softer and easier to soak.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Lorna Cane
 
Edited

On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 09:53 AM, <suzarkr@...> wrote:
The only reason we (my vet and I) decided to try and take him off it was because he was getting  a little bit ouchy walking on rocks.
Hi Susan,

Red flag.  If this were me I would do 2 things at once,one of them being discarding the alfalfa,given what you said above,and what we do know about how some horses react to it.

 
--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Susan,

If Knight were mine and showing sensitivity while on alfalfa I would take him off of it immediately, even without a good substitute available right away.  If he stops being ouchy then you know the alfalfa is too much for him.  It's too much of a risk IMO to leave him on it and hope it's 'just PPID'.


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Susan,

Totally agree that getting his ACTH under control should be high priority.

Just as a reminder, none of the Standlee products is guaranteed to be below 10% ESC+starch for every batch, so feeding any of them to an IR horse is adding another unknown into the equation.

Agree with Lorna that stopping the alfalfa would be prudent as it does make many IR/PPID horses foot sore, with or without the added problem of their PPID not being adequately controlled. Stopping the alf without adding another product in its place initially is one way to do this. As the dentist OK'd using hay cubes as long as you soak them first, substituting the ODTB cubes - after upping the pergolide dose - would bee the perfect solution for you in terms of safety and using something with the correct mineral ratios.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

suzarkr@...
 

Thanks everyone.. Something thing to keep  in mind. Knight has always eaten alfalfa, never had a problem at all. (I realize that things have changed, but I really think its not the alfalfa)
Second, up until a couple days ago it was the ONLY thing he would eat! If I took that away, he wouldnt be eating anything. 
So, now that he is eating again (woo hoo!!) Im going to keep him on the alfalfa pellets and LMF. Once I get the dosage back up to 5mg, AND he is still eating, then I will look into other feed options. Most likely the Timothy Balance Cubes. (I like the idea of them being already balanced and I dont have to give extra supplements) (is that right? or does he still need extra flax and vit e?)


--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

suzarkr@...
 

I just did the math. It would cost me about $175 - $200 per month to feed the Timothy Balance Cubes. I doubt we can afford that. Will have to figure out something else.
--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

suzarkr@...
 

can you feed a horse JUST soy hull pellets?
--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

No.

Do you realize LMF has beet pulp in it?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

suzarkr@...
 

yes. But apparently it wasn't enough to cause loose stools. That didn't show up until I gave him actual r/s/r beet pulp, even though it was a small amount. 
--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If he can tolerate 50:50 alfalfa and LMF, it's not the beet pulp - or any other LMF ingredient. Do you remember the details of what you did when making the substitutions? Weights you fed and took out? The answer might be there.

Also, both increasing pergolide and being on antibiotics could contribute to diarrhea.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

suzarkr@...
 

The first time he had loose stools, not cow pies, was when I started decreasing the alfalfa pellets and increasing the lmf. AND I gave him a small amount (about 1 cup dry) of the r/s/r beet pulp. As soon as I stopped the beet pulp his manure went back to normal. 
As we approached the 5mg of pergolide he went off feed. Not completely, but he would only eat alfalfa pellets for a few days. then we went back to 4mg pergolide and his appetite improved so I added the lmf back into his feed. Tuesday the 3rd I got the Purina Wellsolve, by friday he had cowpies. I guess its the wellsolve. I quit giving it to him. Beet pulp is the second ingredient in wellsolve.
Thanks Eleanor for making me take another look at this. 

--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655

suzarkr@...
 

You were correct. It was the antibiotics. It happened again. I got some probiotics and they are working! He is on smz again due to a wound/bite on his left rear right above the hoof. Its healing and Im hoping he will be off the antibiotics soon.

--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655