Help needed for laminitis (?) after heavy respiratory disease


Sabrina Schäublin
 

Any advice on what to do with a laminitic horse? I guess my mare just got laminitic. She just survived a heavy lung infection. I live in Costa Rica in a very remote area and at the moment we have heavy rainfalls, flooded rivers.. so my mare, who was diagnosed with COPD after a heavvy colic in 2008, seemed to get worse this year. Due to access problems to our area and non-availability of the vets, she got first a treatment with dexametasone for 12 days (given to me by a vet). As it did not help, another vet suggested antibiotics. At this time she got really bad, she had a resp rate of about 60/min i though she would die. Now is the 4th day, yesterday was her worst day, it looks like now her lungs are recovering... but, today i noticed she had problems with standing on one of her front hoof. Hoofs are warm. I can almost not pick up hooves... i usually wash them once a deay with vinegar/water to treat and prevent thrush (at the moment about half of the area is flooded). She has pain, most on one of her front hooves, probably on all. Walks like on eggs. 
Now, i cannot get xrays here. Even the vets around do not have xrays.
I have heard things that she should not get any more grass. She is living only from grass since the last 10+years, as my other 2 horses (pasture grass, giant grass (cameroun), river grass).. i once tried hay many years ago but it came with fungus... and as she has COPD.. but i am willing to give another try if this is the only option. And water the hay.
Any other recommendations? I am grateful for any help.
Thanks
--
Sabrina


Sherry Morse
 






Sabrina Schäublin
 

Dear Sherry

Thank you very much for getting back to me.
I really appreciate it.
I do not really understand the site yet, i got tons of emails with messages for other persons, and only yours was a answer to my question.
I am also unsure where to answer to your message.
Also I am a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information and very limited in my actions due to where i live (practically in one of the remotest area of costa rica where it is very difficult tonget any vet to visit, and then it is a general vet with limited equipment).
I try to get hay. Probably by the end of the week it should be possible (there is no in the area, so i have to get from somewhere else).
I understand i should soak the hay for 1h (in cold water, we do not have hot water).
I understand i should make a blood test. But it is unsure when a vet can come down. For what should it be tested? Every vet can test for that?
I understand that i should give minerals, but no red ones (too much iron). I got one  from costa rica that says is adapted to costa rican forages that is white, but unsure if it is ok to feed. Is there some place i could upload a picture with the mineral analysis?
The one I usually got but then stopped because i was not sure if it was safe and it was very expensive, was Red cell (liquid), i wish i could have advice on that. Also, my mare gets a substance 2 times a day for her liver due to the medicines, that has aminoacids and some minerals, too.
May mare is arab, one of my other horses too, and the third is half arab. I guess they are all too fat (except maybe my mare who lost weight due to her getting very sick). One of my gueldings has a fatty crest and sheath, i was wondering where that comes from.
So i guess i should best change the feeding of all of them. Which is not easy as it is difficult to get hay, the only one time i got in the past it smelled bad, so thats why i stayed on pasture and cut grass (cameroun, purple elefant grass that ive been told is good for horses, but i think there is lots of sugar inside, as the ants come quickly to it if you leave it for some time on the ground). But i will try, i already ordered slow feeding hay nets and am waiting for my hay now.
Some people (on facebook) recommended me cooling the hooves which i did, then one lady said it doesnt make sence as it is a vasoconstriction. Anyway, she got better as now she can stand on all four legs and she can hold up a hoove for longer.
Thank you so much again, and I hope you can help me... sabrina from Costa Rica
--
Sabrina
Drake Bay, Costa Rica
Nov 2023


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Sabrina,

Arabian genetics put your horses at high risk of metabolic syndrome. There is a good chance the steroids caused the laminitis. What type of antibiotic was used?

You should have insulin and glucose tested; ACTH as well if they are teens or older.

The elephant grass is typically low sugar. I couldn't find any information on starch level. The fact you have not had laminitis problems before this suggests the grass is safe, and it is certainly preferable to poor quality hay.  You can have it tested by carefully drying a sample in the microwave https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02571862.1985.10634147 then sending to Dairy One for Profile 10 plus sugar and starch https://dairyone.com/services/forage-laboratory-services/international-sample-submittal/ . You can lower the sugar by spreading the grass out to dry and wilt for a day or two before feeding it.

Definitely no Red Cell or anything else that has added iron. Look for iron or ferrous in the ingredients list. You can post your supplement analysis in the Photos section of the Case History group.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Sabrina Schäublin
 

Dear Eleanor
Thank you very much for your answer.

Penicilline was used as an antibiotic.

I also read that sugar levels are lowest in pasture between 3 am and 10 am, that was why I changed pasture time to the night and now that i have some hay I will probably limit it yo early morning (not sure how this times apply to tye tropics, as here sunset is always at 6 pm and sunrise around 6 am).

I was able to get some hay, i think its better than the one i got last time, although i am not sure if its totally ok. I soak it now for 1 hour prior to give it yo my horses.

About the testing: i do not have a microwave but only a normal oven. Is it also ok to dry the grass with the normal oven? Any recommendations?

Thank you
--
Sabrina
Drake Bay, Costa Rica
Nov 2023


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If you do normal oven drying it must be no higher than 55C and takes several hours. It also considerably lowers sugars by up to 40%
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Sabrina Schäublin
 
Edited

I wanted to uodate in a few things.
The purple giant grass I planted for the horses  (and fed them sometimes at night) is actually called Pennisetum purpureum (Napier grass). I found in one article that sugar is 12% and protein 17,2%. Now how much sugar is a lot? I also found a more detailed analysis where it says total soluable sugar is between 0.3 and 0.6 mg g‐¹ . They also have values for Ca, K, Mg, Fe and others.

This is the article I found:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329514469_Analysis_of_Forage_Yield_and_Nutritional_Contents_of_Pennisetum_glaucum_pearl_millet_and_Pennisetum_purpureum_Napier_grass_accessions 

If anybody could let me know if this grass is apt for feeding to (laminitic) horses i would really appreciate it. As I mentioned before, here in Costa Rica people recommend this grass for horses, but I am unsure because when I cut it, rapidly the ants come.. mostly the stem looks quiet sweet.

Depending on the answer I would either continue to maintain my napier grass field or I would eliminate it.

At the moment I am not able to dry my grass as it rains almost all day almost every day at this time of the year. So I use the hay.

I wish to try testing the grass and the hay, but as i understand the hay does not always come from the same place and it looks very complicated process. But as soon as i have more time i might try to start with this process.

At this moment I wish to ask if it is always necessary in every laminitic case to confine the horse and only feed hay. 

As i guess my mare got her laminits from the medicine and the stress of her disease and also she is very herd bound and used to be on pasture all day. She can walk quiet fine, only if it is very hard and stoney you can notice it. And she doesnt always lift up the front hooves easily. She does not seem to have the tipical laminitic posture, she does not put her hooves in front. Why is that? It was only at her worst day that she tried to lift up one front hoof. Now she stands firmly with all four.

Also I think that she got laminitis before, more or less by the time her COPD started getting worse last year, as one of her hind hoof started to look strange, one vet told me it is a bacterial infection and to soak it in vinegar, but as the hoof wall deformed like a laminitic hoof, i guess it was laminitis. The strange thing is it was on a hind hoof. Now, with trimming, it looks almost good again.

So the question is, in her case, would it be ok to let her on pasture about 4h daily in the early morning when sugar is lowest, with the other horses, and then I feed her soaked hay twice a day with the other horses and keep them on a paddock trail.

Several years ago, she hurt herself by the attempt to get out of the fence, when she was separated from her horses friends, i do not want to risk that again.

But I listen to recommendations, so if most people think healing is impossible with pasture access, i might look further for a solution (not sure at the moment how it could look like).

Also, on pastures we commonly find Ratana (Ischaemum Indicum Houtt.) but not only.
In the article below i found it has 17% soluble carbohydrates.. (CHOS) and Carbohidratos no fibrosos (CNF) 1.58%  Is this too much?

https://revistas.ucr.ac.cr/index.php/agromeso/article/view/15435/14935

Not sure on what sugar rate to look at..

And how can i find out about the starch? Does it have something to do with celulose or lignin?

Thank you for any help.

I try to upload pictures in the case history soon.
--
Sabrina
Drake Bay, Costa Rica
Nov 2023


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

12% total soluble carbohydrate sounds way too high for Pennisetum purpureum. If the Ratan truly is 17% total soluble carbohydrate you can bet the horses will head right to it preferentially.

I couldn't translate the second article other than the chart but assuming the total soluble carbohydrates are ethanol extracted and subjected to the anthrone reaction https://www.onlinebiologynotes.com/anthrone-test-objective-principle-reagents-procedure-and-result/ it's different from the ESC results we are familiar with here. With the anthrone reaction, all plant sugars that do not stimulate insulin release also test positive. You would need to find quantification of fructose, glucose and sucrose but, again, it's a moving target in a fresh grass. If you are going to turn out on grass you will need a very restrictive muzzle.

Starch has nothing to do with cellulose or lignin. It's a storage carbohydrate in warm season grasses.

Even with the rain and humidity, if you shelter the grass from being rained on and let it "age" 12 hours or more that will lower the sugar. Spreading it out on screens, or hanging in a hay bag with a fan going, are best. Freshly cut grass could also be soaked like hay.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Sabrina Schäublin
 
Edited

Dear Eleanor
Thank you for answering me so quickly.

I think it was 12% total sugar for p. Purpureum and I just read it in the internet (ni scientific study).

I now found a study that mentiones total soluble carbohidrates of p.purpureum which indicates 4-5%, with fructose 2.5-3.6% and starch 0.7-1% if i read and understood it correctly.

This is the study I found

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237258662_CHEMICAL_ANALYSIS_OF_ELEPHANT_GRASS_Pennisetum_purpureum_USING_NEAR_INFRARED_REFLECTANCE_SPECTROSCOPY_NIR

But then I found also other studies, one with 4-7% (cutted at 70-100 days) And it looks that sugar content depends on where in the plant it is measured, on the age of the plant to some extent and  on the time of the day it has been cut...

So p.purpureum would be safe to feed? That would help a lot.

I coud age it 12hours.

As my mare has COPD, i might have to soak it after drying? Or if I soak it directly, without drying, is it equally safe?

Do this values (of dried samples) also apply to freshly cutted grass, or would it be more sugar then and this is why i have to dry?

Sorry the many questions. I am grateful for every help,

Sabrina



--
Sabrina
Drake Bay, Costa Rica
Nov 2023


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There are no guarantees but yes, I think it would be safe to feed. I don't think you would have to soak the forage. You do need to bed on only wood shavings, paper or peat and soak any bucket feeds, keep no hay or straw in the same building.

The freshly cut grass would have higher sugar and starch. The more you age it, the lower that will go. Soaking lowers sugar but not starch.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Sabrina Schäublin
 

Today i did not want to let my horses out to pasture to prevent further laminitis damage. But as i do not have access to beet pulp etc at this moment, i decided to take them to pastue for a couple of hours. Now i found my gelding laying down with a manure behind him. Got him up and brought him under the roof/shelter, on the 70m he pooed about 4 times. He was sweating and experiencing pain, breathing rapidly. Then he had(has) diarrea. 
So i am unsure what happened. If this means the hay is bad quality. Or if he ate anything poisonous on the paddock trail (not sure what, never happened in the 13 years i have him and in the 6 years i have the paddock trail). 
Anybody experienced the same? Can this come from the hay? My other two horses seem to be fine. 
He doesnt want to eat anything at all.
--
Sabrina
Drake Bay, Costa Rica
Nov 2023


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Sabrina,

This warrants a visit from your vet.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Cindy Giovanetti
 

Sabrina, is there an update?!
--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125