Help needed for laminitis (?) after heavy respiratory disease
Sabrina Schäublin
Any advice on what to do with a laminitic horse? I guess my mare just got laminitic. She just survived a heavy lung infection. I live in Costa Rica in a very remote area and at the moment we have heavy rainfalls, flooded rivers.. so my mare, who was diagnosed with COPD after a heavvy colic in 2008, seemed to get worse this year. Due to access problems to our area and non-availability of the vets, she got first a treatment with dexametasone for 12 days (given to me by a vet). As it did not help, another vet suggested antibiotics. At this time she got really bad, she had a resp rate of about 60/min i though she would die. Now is the 4th day, yesterday was her worst day, it looks like now her lungs are recovering... but, today i noticed she had problems with standing on one of her front hoof. Hoofs are warm. I can almost not pick up hooves... i usually wash them once a deay with vinegar/water to treat and prevent thrush (at the moment about half of the area is flooded). She has pain, most on one of her front hooves, probably on all. Walks like on eggs.
Now, i cannot get xrays here. Even the vets around do not have xrays. I have heard things that she should not get any more grass. She is living only from grass since the last 10+years, as my other 2 horses (pasture grass, giant grass (cameroun), river grass).. i once tried hay many years ago but it came with fungus... and as she has COPD.. but i am willing to give another try if this is the only option. And water the hay. Any other recommendations? I am grateful for any help. Thanks -- Sabrina |
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Sherry Morse
Hello Sabrina, Welcome to the group! The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Please make sure you update your signature when you have a moment, but as you're in a bit of a crisis I wanted to get you the information on our group as soon as possible. Unfortunately without knowing more about your mare it's hard to say if the laminitis is only due to steroids or if she is PPID and the issues with breathing and the reaction to the steroids are related to that. Until you know for sure I would suggest you treat her as if she is PPID and get her on the emergency diet (more on that below) if possible. Is it possible to have bloodwork done for her to find out if she needs to be on medication for PPID IF she has it? That would be where I would start as far as determining an underlying cause for the laminitis. I'm hoping Dr. Kellon will see this in the morning and offer more advice as well, but in the meantime what follows is our usual welcome message which is full of information on how to treat a horse with PPID and IR, starting with getting an accurate diagnosis. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Sabrina Schäublin
Dear Sherry
Thank you very much for getting back to me. I really appreciate it. I do not really understand the site yet, i got tons of emails with messages for other persons, and only yours was a answer to my question. I am also unsure where to answer to your message. Also I am a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information and very limited in my actions due to where i live (practically in one of the remotest area of costa rica where it is very difficult tonget any vet to visit, and then it is a general vet with limited equipment). I try to get hay. Probably by the end of the week it should be possible (there is no in the area, so i have to get from somewhere else). I understand i should soak the hay for 1h (in cold water, we do not have hot water). I understand i should make a blood test. But it is unsure when a vet can come down. For what should it be tested? Every vet can test for that? I understand that i should give minerals, but no red ones (too much iron). I got one from costa rica that says is adapted to costa rican forages that is white, but unsure if it is ok to feed. Is there some place i could upload a picture with the mineral analysis? The one I usually got but then stopped because i was not sure if it was safe and it was very expensive, was Red cell (liquid), i wish i could have advice on that. Also, my mare gets a substance 2 times a day for her liver due to the medicines, that has aminoacids and some minerals, too. May mare is arab, one of my other horses too, and the third is half arab. I guess they are all too fat (except maybe my mare who lost weight due to her getting very sick). One of my gueldings has a fatty crest and sheath, i was wondering where that comes from. So i guess i should best change the feeding of all of them. Which is not easy as it is difficult to get hay, the only one time i got in the past it smelled bad, so thats why i stayed on pasture and cut grass (cameroun, purple elefant grass that ive been told is good for horses, but i think there is lots of sugar inside, as the ants come quickly to it if you leave it for some time on the ground). But i will try, i already ordered slow feeding hay nets and am waiting for my hay now. Some people (on facebook) recommended me cooling the hooves which i did, then one lady said it doesnt make sence as it is a vasoconstriction. Anyway, she got better as now she can stand on all four legs and she can hold up a hoove for longer. Thank you so much again, and I hope you can help me... sabrina from Costa Rica -- Sabrina Drake Bay, Costa Rica Nov 2023 |
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Hi Sabrina,
Arabian genetics put your horses at high risk of metabolic syndrome. There is a good chance the steroids caused the laminitis. What type of antibiotic was used? You should have insulin and glucose tested; ACTH as well if they are teens or older. The elephant grass is typically low sugar. I couldn't find any information on starch level. The fact you have not had laminitis problems before this suggests the grass is safe, and it is certainly preferable to poor quality hay. You can have it tested by carefully drying a sample in the microwave https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02571862.1985.10634147 then sending to Dairy One for Profile 10 plus sugar and starch https://dairyone.com/services/forage-laboratory-services/international-sample-submittal/ . You can lower the sugar by spreading the grass out to dry and wilt for a day or two before feeding it. Definitely no Red Cell or anything else that has added iron. Look for iron or ferrous in the ingredients list. You can post your supplement analysis in the Photos section of the Case History group. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Sabrina Schäublin
Dear Eleanor
Thank you very much for your answer. Penicilline was used as an antibiotic. I also read that sugar levels are lowest in pasture between 3 am and 10 am, that was why I changed pasture time to the night and now that i have some hay I will probably limit it yo early morning (not sure how this times apply to tye tropics, as here sunset is always at 6 pm and sunrise around 6 am). I was able to get some hay, i think its better than the one i got last time, although i am not sure if its totally ok. I soak it now for 1 hour prior to give it yo my horses. About the testing: i do not have a microwave but only a normal oven. Is it also ok to dry the grass with the normal oven? Any recommendations? Thank you -- Sabrina Drake Bay, Costa Rica Nov 2023 |
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If you do normal oven drying it must be no higher than 55C and takes several hours. It also considerably lowers sugars by up to 40%
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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I wanted to uodate in a few things.
The purple giant grass I planted for the horses (and fed them sometimes at night) is actually called Pennisetum purpureum (Napier grass). I found in one article that sugar is 12% and protein 17,2%. Now how much sugar is a lot? I also found a more detailed analysis where it says total soluable sugar is between 0.3 and 0.6 mg g‐¹ . They also have values for Ca, K, Mg, Fe and others. This is the article I found: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329514469_Analysis_of_Forage_Yield_and_Nutritional_Contents_of_Pennisetum_glaucum_pearl_millet_and_Pennisetum_purpureum_Napier_grass_accessions If anybody could let me know if this grass is apt for feeding to (laminitic) horses i would really appreciate it. As I mentioned before, here in Costa Rica people recommend this grass for horses, but I am unsure because when I cut it, rapidly the ants come.. mostly the stem looks quiet sweet. Depending on the answer I would either continue to maintain my napier grass field or I would eliminate it. At the moment I am not able to dry my grass as it rains almost all day almost every day at this time of the year. So I use the hay. I wish to try testing the grass and the hay, but as i understand the hay does not always come from the same place and it looks very complicated process. But as soon as i have more time i might try to start with this process. At this moment I wish to ask if it is always necessary in every laminitic case to confine the horse and only feed hay. As i guess my mare got her laminits from the medicine and the stress of her disease and also she is very herd bound and used to be on pasture all day. She can walk quiet fine, only if it is very hard and stoney you can notice it. And she doesnt always lift up the front hooves easily. She does not seem to have the tipical laminitic posture, she does not put her hooves in front. Why is that? It was only at her worst day that she tried to lift up one front hoof. Now she stands firmly with all four. Also I think that she got laminitis before, more or less by the time her COPD started getting worse last year, as one of her hind hoof started to look strange, one vet told me it is a bacterial infection and to soak it in vinegar, but as the hoof wall deformed like a laminitic hoof, i guess it was laminitis. The strange thing is it was on a hind hoof. Now, with trimming, it looks almost good again. So the question is, in her case, would it be ok to let her on pasture about 4h daily in the early morning when sugar is lowest, with the other horses, and then I feed her soaked hay twice a day with the other horses and keep them on a paddock trail. Several years ago, she hurt herself by the attempt to get out of the fence, when she was separated from her horses friends, i do not want to risk that again. But I listen to recommendations, so if most people think healing is impossible with pasture access, i might look further for a solution (not sure at the moment how it could look like). Also, on pastures we commonly find Ratana (Ischaemum Indicum Houtt.) but not only. In the article below i found it has 17% soluble carbohydrates.. (CHOS) and Carbohidratos no fibrosos (CNF) 1.58% Is this too much? https://revistas.ucr.ac.cr/index.php/agromeso/article/view/15435/14935 Not sure on what sugar rate to look at.. And how can i find out about the starch? Does it have something to do with celulose or lignin? Thank you for any help. I try to upload pictures in the case history soon. -- Sabrina Drake Bay, Costa Rica Nov 2023 |
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12% total soluble carbohydrate sounds way too high for Pennisetum purpureum. If the Ratan truly is 17% total soluble carbohydrate you can bet the horses will head right to it preferentially.
I couldn't translate the second article other than the chart but assuming the total soluble carbohydrates are ethanol extracted and subjected to the anthrone reaction https://www.onlinebiologynotes.com/anthrone-test-objective-principle-reagents-procedure-and-result/ it's different from the ESC results we are familiar with here. With the anthrone reaction, all plant sugars that do not stimulate insulin release also test positive. You would need to find quantification of fructose, glucose and sucrose but, again, it's a moving target in a fresh grass. If you are going to turn out on grass you will need a very restrictive muzzle. Starch has nothing to do with cellulose or lignin. It's a storage carbohydrate in warm season grasses. Even with the rain and humidity, if you shelter the grass from being rained on and let it "age" 12 hours or more that will lower the sugar. Spreading it out on screens, or hanging in a hay bag with a fan going, are best. Freshly cut grass could also be soaked like hay. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Dear Eleanor
Thank you for answering me so quickly. I think it was 12% total sugar for p. Purpureum and I just read it in the internet (ni scientific study). I now found a study that mentiones total soluble carbohidrates of p.purpureum which indicates 4-5%, with fructose 2.5-3.6% and starch 0.7-1% if i read and understood it correctly. This is the study I found https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237258662_CHEMICAL_ANALYSIS_OF_ELEPHANT_GRASS_Pennisetum_purpureum_USING_NEAR_INFRARED_REFLECTANCE_SPECTROSCOPY_NIR But then I found also other studies, one with 4-7% (cutted at 70-100 days) And it looks that sugar content depends on where in the plant it is measured, on the age of the plant to some extent and on the time of the day it has been cut... So p.purpureum would be safe to feed? That would help a lot. I coud age it 12hours. As my mare has COPD, i might have to soak it after drying? Or if I soak it directly, without drying, is it equally safe? Do this values (of dried samples) also apply to freshly cutted grass, or would it be more sugar then and this is why i have to dry? Sorry the many questions. I am grateful for every help, Sabrina -- Sabrina Drake Bay, Costa Rica Nov 2023 |
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There are no guarantees but yes, I think it would be safe to feed. I don't think you would have to soak the forage. You do need to bed on only wood shavings, paper or peat and soak any bucket feeds, keep no hay or straw in the same building.
The freshly cut grass would have higher sugar and starch. The more you age it, the lower that will go. Soaking lowers sugar but not starch. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Sabrina Schäublin
Today i did not want to let my horses out to pasture to prevent further laminitis damage. But as i do not have access to beet pulp etc at this moment, i decided to take them to pastue for a couple of hours. Now i found my gelding laying down with a manure behind him. Got him up and brought him under the roof/shelter, on the 70m he pooed about 4 times. He was sweating and experiencing pain, breathing rapidly. Then he had(has) diarrea.
So i am unsure what happened. If this means the hay is bad quality. Or if he ate anything poisonous on the paddock trail (not sure what, never happened in the 13 years i have him and in the 6 years i have the paddock trail). Anybody experienced the same? Can this come from the hay? My other two horses seem to be fine. He doesnt want to eat anything at all. -- Sabrina Drake Bay, Costa Rica Nov 2023 |
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Sabrina,
This warrants a visit from your vet. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Cindy Giovanetti
Sabrina, is there an update?!
-- Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas On ECIR protocol since 2/19 https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/ History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125 |
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