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Here we go again... 5th tine

jessica skene
 

Soooooo
here we go again! 5th laminitis... not even 1 year after the previous one 🤦🏻‍♀️

seriously guys... I had to say she was doing good to have this slap in the face now
she is on jiaogulan (1 tbs) / arginin ( 1 1/2 tsp)/ magnesium
receive mad barn amino trace +
receive linseed
is booted (with socks) blanketed and have leg warmer (shipping boots)
seriously.... what’s wrong with us??
i go to the barn twice a day to take care of her... and it did nothing!
she started bing bang suddently with no previous signs 2 days ago! Super lame from the right (it was cold too) then not too bad yesterday both a bit sensitive and this morning super lame with laminitis posture... both feet are warm on top but cold on the toe.

Also, she is often sweaty on the belly and the chest when I come in the barn in the morning, but it’s not that cold... this means something?

can I do something more?

--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

jessica skene
 

Other little precision! Winter is arrived really really early and fast! I don’t know if it could have play in the laminitis
I started to cover her almost right away but ...
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

jessica skene
 

She’s sweaty in her stall, but when out with her insulated blanket, no sweating, not even hot!
when training she is regular sweating not over 🤔
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

Nancy C
 

Hi Jessica

I am having trouble reconstructing your situation based on case history.  I have not gone back through all your posts.

Wanted to offer you may be dealing with abscess again based on sudden onset.  You may have figured this out.

Not sure what you mean by "not sweating while in training" and we may be lost in translation, however, I would not be working her based on what you are telling us.

Unusual sweating can be from pain, PPID, other undiagnosed issues.

--

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
  • #243829
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

jessica skene
 

Just that when I normally train her (not now) she is not sweating more than the normal

the pain is going from right to left and it’s never an abcess... each time we think of that and surprise it’s laminitis =\
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Jessica,

Your case history and photos are all over a year old. Could we start with updated information?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001

Nancy C
 

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 05:00 PM, jessica skene wrote:
he pain is going from right to left and it’s never an abcess... each time we think of that and surprise it’s laminitis =\
How do you know it is laminitis?  How was diagnosis made?  Abscess could start in one foot and pain could move to the other due to compensation in a compromised foot. Just need to cover all possibilities so we can all be on the same page.

Do you have sox, leg and foot warmth in place for winter laminitis?

Small heads up, yu may know this, sio I post for others whoa re likely following your story. True winter laminitis is different from metabolic laminitis. Metabolic laminitis is typically  seen for example, in the fall for uncontrolled PPID or in the spring for mares with hormonal issues. Info on winter laminitis -- how to identify it and what to do about it -- is in the 2015 NO Laminitis Proceedings

https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php

Your first four episodes were in the spring.  Have you investigated testing for mare issues? Again, apologize if I missed it. I understand this may take a bit of doing based on where you are. Just want to make sure you have thought about the possibility. I am not seeing this info in CH or in review of messages.  Please point me in the right direction if I missed it.
 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Nancy C
 

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 05:49 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
Your case history and photos are all over a year old. Could we start with updated information?
--
Eleanor in PA
For the record, totally agree.
 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

jessica skene
 

Nothing have changed in a year in her management and all!

so laminitis, all her laminitis always started like that, today she had the laminitic stance and the walk on eggs. Also her right foot was cold the day it started to be painfull colder than the others.

yes she is covered as I said in my main post

she had an echo to look at her ovaries, one were a bit larger than the other but with no significant dofference but we talked about keeping an eye on it. For now I have a negative budget so I just CAN’T go in full testing... but I will look to redo ab echo this spring

she always did laminitis in spring but it is earlier and earlier each year (march, feb, feb, jan and now nov). Acth tested last year in fall, in the normal, nothing to worry! I also had tested for pergolide one pill with no effect except pergolide veil... she was half dead

last year laminitis when started jiaogulan, she instantly improved! It really did helped her!

i will look at my case history tomorrow
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

jessica skene
 

everything is up to date
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

 

Jessica, I enjoyed looking at your photos.  Just a few weeks ago, she really seemed to be full of herself.  It’s kind of hard to tell her coloring but she appears to be black with a lot of bleaching in her forelock.  This red coloration can be indicative of iron overload which can exacerbate IR.  Your CH doesn’t mention anything about this, although your posts might.  More careful hay balancing and water filtration are the remedies, if needed.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Jessica,

When you first started the Jiaogulan, did you monitor gum and tongue color? Is it still bright pink? You may need to increase dose and/or add a third dose. Arginine can go as high as 10 g 3 or 4 times a day. Ariginine should be syringed in or fed as a slurry with Jiaogulan and nothing else. Other amino acids in foods will decrease the effect.  Does she improve if you walk her?

I agree the timing, history and your observations point to cold as at least part of the problem here but can't tell about her insulin and ACTH levels now. She also needs to lose more weight.

I also agree she's highly suspicious for ovarian involvement. If she flares again early spring you could try a trial of estrogen for a week or two. I'll be glad to send your vet some background information.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001

jessica skene
 

Iron overload is under control! She does not rust anymore, her hair is pitch black and her mane is wayyyyyy better

dr. Kellon she gained a bit of weight for winter but eay less than usual, her fat pad at withers are not coming back and the on on her ribs are less than usual. Also, i feel her ribs really well 🤔 but she is a canadian horse so her neck is big, it’s caracteristic! But her neck is not as bad as it have been

yes, I did put her jiao with gums colour! They seems pretty pink but I will look at it closer to be sure! i will start to give arginine 2 times a day then!!

for now I really don’t have any dollar left for acth testing 😩 but I will look at ovaries this spring 🤔
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

Nancy C
 
Edited

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:04 AM, jessica skene wrote:
Iron overload is under control! She does not rust anymore, her hair is pitch black and her mane is wayyyyyy better
Hi Jessica

You wouldn't actually know this without testing, but If your hay is balanced to address excess iron and manganese, that will help with the effects from too much iron and manganese in the diet but you to know if she is truly iron overloaded on a tissue level (not just dietary intake) you need to test.

To figure out why she keeps getting laminitis following DDT+E works.   We all know about funds being tight, however yearly bouts of laminitis are to be avoided. Getting a plan in place has worked for those of us with horses who do not respond to diet adjustment alone.

From your updated CH:

Diagnosis - She is EMS based on 2012 testing.  Nothing since then. PPID? Ovarian? Iron Overload? Lyme Disease?

Diet: Not clear to me if the diet is balanced to the hay. Hope you are continuing to monitor weight loss. 

Trim:  No info there

Exercise: Not clear from CH but as you know if she is suffering yearly bouts of laminitis she needs a full hoof growth without back sliding before she is fully worked with a rider.

The link to your CH is broken, and not taking us to your folder.  Hope you can fix that.

Thanks.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Jessica,

Jumping in here as a  fellow-Canadian owner, no longer with us.  Be careful not to be lulled into a sense of relaxation wrt her neck size. I haven't heard before about Canadians having big necks. Frankly  I doubt that is factual. But my opinion isn't important here.
It is true that Canadians are easy keepers. It pays to watch them carefully ( I do know you watch your beautiful mare carefully!) and  question ourselves about what we are actually seeing.
I see what Dr. K. sees wrt her weight.

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Canadians have a  natural prominent arch and a wide base to their neck but it is not normal or characteristic to have a fatty crest.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001

jessica skene
 

Ok I will be more clear
I have actually trouble to do my living payment, so for now testing is impossible... I just can’t and I will assume it if this make me a bad EMS horse owner. We have no vet in the area, one vet come from the south every 2 weeks, but it’s hard to do testing as we don’t have a lab near us... we can now centrifugate blood but we can’t freeze it on site... soooo to be perfect I should borrow a trailer and put my mare in it, do 6 hour drive to go in the nearest horse hospital that is well equiped to do proper testing.

the trim is done by me and is well managed it had been confirmes here before
i will work the link! i forgot I had to change it here

I do try my best for the weight lost but I an in bording and can’t manage as I would wish to do =\ not always easy... one day I will be at my place and able to really manage her diet 100%


the hay had been analysed last year and the diet have been balanced here! We still have the same furnisher with the same field but I will retest it as soon as I can afford it this year, in the meantime I am collecting sample from many bales

EMS-IR
have been tested last fall for PPID as I said in this post she was really in the normal 
ovaries were ok last year but I will look at them this spring to see if there is any change in size

--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

jessica skene
 

Dahhh I always have trouble to find where to change my signature hehe
here is tje link


--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and suspicion of IR

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Jessica,

Go to Subscription, remove the link in your signature box, replace it with the good link,and hit Save.
That should do it.

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Jessica,

I went to your CH to see if I could find a way to reduce expenses for you.
It's hard to know, though, exactly how you are managing the details.

For example, you say that in 2017 you were feeding 10kg of hay. Does that mean you still are feeding 10kg? It would be so much clearer if you could add Nov 30,2019,and record the amount.
I think 10kg could be more than a mare her size needs, and may be a reason for her extra weight. Possibly.

Where you name the brand of supplements, you refer to My best friend. Do you mean My Best Horse?

Is there any way you can see your way clear to going through your CH with a fine-toothed comb, and record details as they apply now ?
For one thing, it will help the volunteers to provide you with better advice.
For another thing, it may show us where you can save some money, or put your money to better use , and still help your beautiful mare.
Also, really, really helpful would be current photos of her feet. Wiki outlines what is  needed for hoof photos.

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002