Hind Leg Lifting
|
Corina Ryan
Hello,
My mini mare is currently suffering from laminitis. She is in her stall. This has been for about a week. She is still alternating lifting and holding up her hind legs. She is not doing so with her front. She does it the most in the morning and really not at all at the end of the day. It mildly helps to put back on track quick wraps on her legs but this morning she kept persisting even with the boots on. She doesn't appear uncomfortable while doing ( I know she has to be or else why would she be doing it) but she continues eating etc. She is currently getting bute and as I mentioned is stalled. What can i do to try to help her? Should I reach out to my vet to see about increasing her bute? When I sent the video to my vet last week she said it was what horses do when they are cold to try to warm their extremities by bringing them closer to their core. However, I am suspicious that it is hoof pain. The weather here has been mild the last day or so. Last night was a low of 41 degrees and today will be in the mid 40s. I greatly appreciate any suggestions on how to make her more comfortable. Thank you! -- Corina Ryan New Hampshire Joined December 2022 |
|
|
|
Bobbie Day
Corina
Are her legs and feet wrapped with something warm? Im not familiar with those wraps but try fleece leg wraps and socks or something similar and see if it helps. Some horses experience cold induced hoof pain when the temps are as low as the fifties. I would certainly try it. Why are you giving Bute? NASIDS won’t help if the laminitis is due to uncontrolled insulin as it’s not inflammatory. Do you have a case history on your horse? Here is some additional reading on the subject. It would be helpful to have more information. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Pain%20Relief%20Alternatives%20to%20Bute%20and%20Banamine.pdf https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Why%20NSAIDs%20&%20Icing%20Are%20Not%20Recommended%20.pdf -- Bobbie and Maggie Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) Utah, Nov 2018 ECIR Group Primary Response https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821 |
|
|
|
Corina Ryan
Hello,
So the bute is a confusing topic for me. On the 26th her pain became uncontrolled she was not on any bute or banamine, she was breathing heavily and was treading her feet quickly. My vet told me to give her banamine which did help. So we continued on with the banamine for a few days and now the bute only. She is very fat. I had her tested for Cushing and IR back in 3/21 and she was not positive for either but she was only a 2 points away from being considered IR. So I suspect she is now as she has not lost really much weight. I will review the articles. It sounds like the bute maybe should be discontinued? What can be done for pain management then? I worry about her discomfort. I know the issue is likely her weight but I know that will take time to reverse. I am following the recommended feed protocols. |
|
|
|
Corina, your case history pdf is floating by itself in the Files in the Case History sub-group. I found it by going to the Case History sub-group, to the Files section, then searched under 'Corina'.
Sylvie's Case History (groups.io) There's two steps you need to do now to make the case history available to people trying to answer your questions: first, create a folder in the Case History sub-group in the Files section. Instructions are in the Wiki under "Case History Help". Label your folder "Corina and Sylvie'. Then you can either click on the scissors icon next to the case history file to move it to your folder, or you can delete the current floating pdf and re-upload the pdf that is on your device--make sure you know where you have saved the case history pdf on your device if you choose this option. Let us know if you get stuck there. Once you've moved your case history pdf to your folder, please copy the URL of the case history pdf and paste it into your signature box (in the 'Subscriptions' tab, where you created your signature. Make sure you click enter after pasting the URL into the signature, and scroll down to the bottom of the Subscriptions page to click 'Save'. Then your link to the case history will become 'live' (like mine is below) and we can easily click on it to find your information. I know it sounds complicated, but if you follow the steps one by one, it will become clearer. -- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
|
|
|
|
Bobbie Day
No worries Corina
We can help with that, is there something in particular that’s hanging you up? the second link I sent you have the recommended pain alternatives. -- Bobbie and Maggie Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) Utah, Nov 2018 ECIR Group Primary Response https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821 |
|
|
|
Kim Leitch
Corina, you mentioned that Bute use is confusing to you, and it can be. Laminitis pain is not inflammatory and can only be relieved by lowering insulin. If NSAIDS appear to help, they are often relieving other body aches that are caused by inflamation. I rescued a Shetland pony who was down most of the time. I already had a horse with IR, so I had all the correct diet items. Bella was up and walking around in less than four days. Put Sylvie on the Emergency diet, if you haven't yet, and as her insulin decreases, her pain will decrease. If she is still on the Nutrena Empower, stop it. Himalayan salt contains impurities, including iron, so remove that. Feed her 2% of her desired weight in pounds, or 1.5% of her current weight, whichever is greater ( this includes all hay and carriers). This will help her begin to lose some weight.
-- Kim 10-2014 Clover, SC Grits and Bella: PPID, IR; Dually: IR (sold); and Eeyore (deceased, but not PPID related) Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits%20-%20Eeyore%20-%20Dually Photo album Grits https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1314 |
|
|
|
Corina Ryan
Hello,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thank you, Kim. Sylvia has been religiously on the emergency diet since last Thursday. Before that I was soaking her hay but she was getting the nutrena still. She is still quite sore. I know no one has a crystal ball but how long can it take for their insulin to come down? I had her blood taken last Tuesday but I do not have the results yet. I am doing a lot of learning as I have never experienced this before with a personal horse. I am gathering that there are many kinds of laminitis such as septis induced, winter, IR etc. Is it possible that she is IR and has winter laminitis? Essentially two separate issues or will the winter laminitis, if she has it, get better as her insulin improves as well? I know this is a lot of crystal ball questions! I am so grateful for all the support I have gotten with my million and one questions in this group! Now to work on my case study upload! Thank you, Corina
--
Corina Ryan New Hampshire Joined December 2022 |
|
|
|
Sherry Morse
Hi Corina, If she's lifting her legs when you have the BOT wraps on they need to come off as that's a sign she's not comfortable with them on. Some horses have rather extravagant reactions to them and she could be one of them. On the other hand it could just be a sign of her overall discomfort which could be hoof/body/intestinal if you've had her on NSAIDs for an extended period of time. If she's IR and laminitic the bute will not do any good so the sooner you can wean her off of it the better.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
|
|
|
Corina Ryan
Hello,
|
|
|
|
Corina Ryan
Hello, she has not received a long time of nsaids. She had one banamine dose of 500 on the 26th. Then a daily dose for 250 pounds for the next two days. And then 2 days of .25 scoop of bute. I have since taken her off as recommended.
|
|
|
|
Hi Corina,
If your pony tested within a couple points of the lab reference range for IR and it was not after a grain meal, then she is IR (or more correctly, she has EMS). Lab reference ranges are not normals when it comes to insulin because insulin varies so strongly by the type of meal received: https://www.ecirhorse.org/FastingInsulin-LabRefRanges.php Sepsis/SIRS induced laminitis is not accompanied by high insulin, has a sudden and severe onset, and these horses are SICK with accompanying fever, diarrhea, etc. Metabolic laminitis (affecting IR/EMS/PPID horses) actually creeps up on you even if it appears sudden (horses always have a history of tender hooves, whiteline spreading/'disease', rings in the hooves, elevated insulin, cresty neck, tendency to obesity, etc) and is responsible for up to 90% of all laminitis cases. Obesity is NOT the cause of EMS. It is one sign of it and letting these horses get too fat can reduce their insulin sensitivity, but they already had EMS from the day the were born. Is she kicking at her stomach? I'd consider trying ulcer treatment for a few days to see if that improves, and uf it foes then do the full course. Also warm up the hind legs, too, as that could be pain from cold weather. If she's in boots, ut could be boot fit. My horse did this with his hinds after trying a new pair of boots, and about 5 days after the behaviour started horrendous heel bulb bruises showed up! I answered your question about winter laminitis in Horsekeeping: https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/message/31476 If you don't see improvement in pain after 3-5 days on the ER diet, you need to redo bloodwork abd make sure you're doing all you can with warming. You likely also need the trim to be adjusted as this is often the missing link in comfort. To get hoof markups you can use to guide your trimmer, read this and follow the steps: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
|
|
|
Corina Ryan
Thank you!!! This is helpful!!!
And this makes sense as she "looked" very EMS even when she tested negative the cresty neck and the fat pads etc. She is definitely not sick nor does she have fever. And I have noticed that she was more stiff before this more acute episode, I had chalked it up to the ground freezing and her having white feet. I know now this was likely not the case. I will focus on warming the legs. Do you have suggestions on blanketing her? She is quite woolly but I have read that blanketing them can help winter laminitis but I worry about over blanketing her with her thick coat. I have had suggestions of if the ears are cold and feeling under the blanket. My riding horse is blanketed regularly but he really hates the cold so if I follow those procedures I likely will have her too hot. Also I misspoke, when I said boots I was referring to her fleece lined shipping boots not hoof boots. I haven't been booting her in the stall because she is pretty sound in the stall and I worry about the moisture in the boots. Maybe that is unfair? Thank you Thank you!!! this has been very informative! -- Corina Ryan New Hampshire Joined December 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Corina%20and%20Sylvie Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=282843 |
|
|
|
If she's comfortable without boots in the stall then the only other reason to use them would be to warm her up. Warm wool socks in boots, or just warm socks without boots, would be advised. I also suggest trying the blanket and picking a block if time where you can check every hour or 2 to make sure she's not sweating. Even a light rain sheet or polar fleece cooler over her thick woolly coat might help warm her without adding too much insulation.
Do her hooves feel warm to touch though? If they do then cold might not be an issue for her. If they're a bit cool or cold though, try getting them to the point where they feel toasty warm and see if she's less painful. Along with trying to warm her up, priorities are still: 1. check her insulin, and 2. take hoof photos and ask for trim markups. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
|
|