Invokana, RSR Beet Pulp and Alternatives
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Hey all,
Vinnie is doing super. We got past the last issue with elevated TG and some collections that needed to move on out and we have been walking again...and he is able to walk all over the ranch in hard surfaces without issues. Whoohoo!! We now are managing the arthritis and ringbone vs feet which is a major milestone My question is around RSR beet pulp and the control of TG now that we are back on 150mg invokana every other day. I have played around with different amts of beet pulp that he will tolerate over time and as soon as I get to 4 cups dry per feeding he stops eating it. He will eat about 2 cups dry (RSR) with about 2 cups of stabul 1 and 2 cups of timothy pellets consistently 2 times per day. I was wondering thought about the RSR practice. I know part of this is to remove dirt that may have iron, but I have been rinsing to clear water after soaking anywhere from 30mins to 1 hr. Do we really need to remove all the sugar for horses on Invokana? My second question, I recall a while back a post that I cannot find that indicates soy hull may be a good option for horses that won't eat beet pulp because it processes similarly converting to 'acetate'? Did I confuse that? I am seeking dietary options to mitigate the TG elevation and I think part of my solution is still evading me a bit. The ever elusive Vinnie master!! VInnie's last labs after restarting 75mg daily of invokana (at 10 days) glucose 107 was 103, insulin 66, was 113 and TG 144 was 49. This was after a 6 week break to reset, get him on a correct dose of pergolide (now 2.4 mg CP was 1.8) and acth had been 17.4 jumped to 21.3 during December labs. I have a spreadsheet of diet and labs for comparison that I will load to CH once j update with the last labs. We will be checking again in 2 weeks. Just wondering if anyone had some thoughts about dietary options that seem to work well etc. Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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Hi, Nancy. Glad to hear about Vinnie! As for RSR BP, you certainly don't need to remove *all* the sugar, only enough to bring it within the usual guideline of less than 10% (starch is minimal). You could be spending too much time rinsing. I don't rinse for half an hour in running water. The best way to know if you're wasting time over-rinsing is to analyze an RSR sample. With my RSR routine, ESC is a fraction of 1% As Fed and around 2% As Dry Matter. ESC doesn't need to be that low to be safe. That's just how it turns out after I've washed away the dirt, grit and molasses-by-product to get to the average iron content, which is 412 ppm as Dry Matter.
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Thanks Cass! I don't rinse for 30 mins, I do soak for 30 mins to 1 hr after an initial rinse. But then once soaked I fill a container about three to four times to rinse until the water runs clear. I could try testing like you suggest.
I have also tried removing hay by lb and cubes etc but he will.go off even eating beet pulp and I am not sure that is prudent. Once I get past 4 cups total per day he decides he won't eat it at all. I am hoping others will chime in that are using one of the SGLT2 inhibitors to share what is working for them too. What feeds and processes are working to keep TG in check. Vinnie may be the anomaly and I am ok to accept that but hoping for some ideas 💡 Thanks in advance ☺ -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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Nancy Kitchen
Hi Nancy
Maybe this has been suggested but Perhaps if possible try a different brand of Beet Pulp. My horses all readily eat Speedi Beet but turned their noses up at the shreds. I have used Blue Seal BP pellets in a pinch and they like those too. -- Nancy K Smoke and Tucky November 2018, Southeast, MA Smoke Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke Smoke Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122 Tucky Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck Tucky Photo Album:
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Thanks Nancy, I have tried two different brands, but just looked up Speedi Beet. Do you have to rinse and soak and rinse this brand too? It seems lIke it may be pre -rinsed?
-- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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Speedibeet is guaranteed low ESC but it still needs rinsing for iron. It’s expensive in NorCal. It’s very fine textured like BP from pellets. Maybe Vinnie would like that. I need to use hot water to get the pellets to saturate and break apart before rinsing, so it’s almost a process of soaking before rinsing.
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Nancy Kitchen
Yes I still rinse/soak/rinse - surprisingly there is quite a bit of brown water that comes off them... perhaps the iron or dirt? I don't know what it is but mixed with the mini bites (similar to Stabul 1 according to dr kellon) he will eat all the bp I give him. Speedibeet costs about $45 per bag here in MA. last time I bought some, I'm sure the pricing will go up soon enough.
-- Nancy K Smoke and Tucky November 2018, Southeast, MA Smoke Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke Smoke Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122 Tucky Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck Tucky Photo Album:
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Thanks Nancy! Yes I was pricing it out online last night and found that it is about the a me cost to ship. Inhave tonsee if someone local.can carry. I may try a bag to see if it makes a difference.
Thanks Cass! Yes, he will only eat BP with flax oil, 2 cups of stabul 1 with the 2 cups of rsr BP and 1-2 cups of timothy pellets. Otherwise he won't eat it at all. -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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In case anyone is interested here is a lab, feed, meds, matrix that we are tracking for Vinnie to find the right solution. We are getting close I think...
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Vinnie/D%27Cruz%20Vinnie%202022-01-06-%20Lab%20Tests%20and%20Meds.xlsx Thanks Nan -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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Nancy, I mix Speedibeet (which is also pretty expensive here) with soyhull pellets, which aren't as expensive, and my horses seem to prefer the texture of the two mixed together. The soyhulls tend to disintegrate quickly when soaked, so I either add them at the last minute to r/s/r speedibeet and add a little more water, or I shove the whole lot into a fine mesh laundry bag and r/s/r using that. It might be something to try if Vinnie decides, as many fussy eaters do, that he loves the new speedibeet for a week then not so much...
-- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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Is anyone using the smart beet pellets sold by Tractor Supply? They were out-of the shreds today and I am not sure I like these pellets very much!?!
-- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
I've tried the Tractor Supply pellets and shreds - didn't like them. Seemed realy dirty.
-- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR
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taskerudet
Hello Nancy,
I started using the smart beet pellets about 6 months ago. I had been using the shreds which are dusty and they were not in stock all of the time. I didn't want to use the pellets because people on this site complained about them being difficult to deal with. I have found they are very much cleaner than the shreds and are easily rinsed and soaked in the same colander used for the shreds. They fluff up nicely and my little guy likes them. Currently I feed him all r/s/r pellets in the am and half and half pellets and shreds pm. I will eventually be transitioned to only pellets when the shreds are used up. I have not experienced any dirty dusty pellets.
-- Ellen and Crackers July 2011, Goldendale, WA Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645
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Don't be fooled into thinking the pellets are cleaner if they are from the same company. The dirt/dust is in the pellets.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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If you’re talking about Standlee SmartBeet, which is sold thru TSC and other dealers, the bag I bought had less iron than Speedibeet at 409 ppm iron. RSR was 285 ppm iron, the lowest I’ve ever had. Water added as per instructions, No RSR: The molasses byproduct used by Standlee is black and looks dark and dirty when water is added to the pellets and not rinsed. I don’t feed them without RSR first. Other runs are undoubtedly different and could be dirtier. My problems with the pellets are that my horses prefer the texture of larger shreds AND the pellets require long soaking in HOT water to break up completely,
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Thanks everyone! I managed to get some shreds today after placing online for pick up, they must have had them in the back.
I may mix them to use up the pellets. :) -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104
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