IR mare with ventral edema
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My 17 y/o Arab mare foundered in December 2021. She was diagnosed with IR, her ACTH has been in normal range. Her hoofs are doing great. She lost appropriate amount of weight and fat pads, crest nearly normal, and she looks and feels good. Insulin is normal now. She is only on herbs and mineral balancer. On dry lot. Exercise 5 day/week hand walking. Have not resumed riding yet. She gets intermittent edema on her ventral abdomen, mostly just off midline, mostly on the left side. What could this be?
-- Linda S in California 2011 |
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Hi Linda
Although you've been a member for a while, as a refresher I'm sending you our current welcome message for new members. It sounds like your mare is doing well after her laminitis, great management! I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable to commend on the ventral edema, just wanted to ask whether you notice it at certain times, or if there is correlation with anything else in her management, diet or environment. A photo or two would be helpful as well. I think you've been sent the instructions on how to create a case history folder and photo album--these instructions are also in the welcome message below. Hello Welcome to the group! The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. -- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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Hi Linda, my gelding Vinnie has a lot of sensitivities to flies and mosquitoes and I find that he will often respond with ventral line edema. He has a compromised lymphatic system on his right side and it is always worse on that side.
Hope that helps. Nancy -- Nancy and Vinnie and Summer Oakley, Ca Joined Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855 Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104 |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Linda. I have an IR/PPID mare...with ventral edema. There are pics of it in her photos...it's Dolly's photo album. if you use the search box, you can find other discussions on this topic. I don't believe we know, for sure, why this occurs....
-- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos Primary Responder |
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Thanks so much. I’m having trouble navigating the website for case history and photos. The swelling seems to be associated with hot weather maybe less active. She has had a swollen udder area on the left for years. She was recent at vets for colic and lab work for standard blood tests all normal. Vet thought maybe she had pigeon fever there years ago and it left scarring in her node causing the swelling but wasn’t sure. She is not in a stall this time of year It does improve with exercise but not always. Thanks
-- Linda S in California 2011 |
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Bobbie Day
Linda, we also have a mare that did this for years, had the vet out multiple times and bloodwork. It stopped when she was put on Prascend. I wonder if your mare possibly needs a increase in her medication?
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Hi Linda
Make sure you have alerted your vet to this. I think you have but want to make sure especially if it is getting worse. The hardest part for many folks is learning how to move to subgroups. I see you are a member there which is a good start. Here is the link to the group. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files You can also access your subgroups on a large device via the YOUR GROUPS tab at the top of the groups.io webpage Here are instructions for case history. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Case-History-Help Download the document for your platform (PC or MAC) and it fills out like any Word or Pages doc. Fill out and then upload as a .pdf. Instructions are at the bottom of the form. Bookmarking these pages helps for future retrieval. Hang in there. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2021-2022 |
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Thanks I downloaded the form but it won’t let me type in it. --
Linda Schaap
Circle L Ranch
Palo Cedro, CA
530-524-3524
Embracing Nature with Love and Light -- Linda S in California 2011 |
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Linda, are you on a computer or a smaller device such as an iPad? Make sure you have downloaded the correct form for your device—if it’s a Mac computer or iPad, you’ll need the Pages form. If it’s an android tablet or a PC, you’ll need the Word doc form. Try saving the form under a different name, then opening it. This should allow you to type into the boxes. Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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Also, make sure you actually have a word processor on your device. If you’re using Pages on an Apple device, be sure you tap the Edit button, usually in the upper RH corner.
-- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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I’ll give it a third try. I’m using a laptop --
Linda Schaap
Circle L Ranch
Palo Cedro, CA
530-524-3524
Embracing Nature with Love and Light -- Linda S in California 2011 |
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