Jiaogulan and Devil's Claw for Sunny


Susan Carroll
 

There's so much here to absorb.  I'm re-reading the info on Jiaogulan and realize it is not to be given with Devil's Claw.  I have Sunny totally off all Nsaids, and have been giving him pure Devil's Claw.  I also started the Jiaogulan after his last trim.  What is the recommendation if both cannot be given together?  Also, is there a reason for giving the Jiaogulan 20 minutes before the meal, such as metabolizing or better absorption?  I have been syringing it with his metformin, then feeding.  He has quit eating anything that has a supplement on it or in the same pan as his feed.  Including his salt and ground flax.
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Susan C from GA 2022
Sunny Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Sunny
Sunny Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274055


 
Edited

Hi, Susan.
We can and do combine Devil's Claw with Jiaogulan. It is not necessary to feed them at the same time. The issue a bit more subtle: whether Devil's Claw can interfere with the action of Jiaogulan. Please see this message from Dr Kellon, explaining that they can be used together when transitioning (off NSAIDs during the taper) and for acute pain. In combination, you need to make sure the Jiaogulan dose is sufficient.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/270969 
The combination is also used in controlling pain in equines with DSLD: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/216345 

The reason for giving Jiaogulan 20 minutes before feed to for better absorption. If you need to know if it's working, look for pinker tongue and gums within an hour or so. If you can't tell or don't know, start over and introduce it after a day off. If the gums aren't pinker, increase the dose by ¼ or ½ teaspoon until you can see they are pinker. If Sunny has pink skin, IME it will be a lot easier to see if his gums are pinker than if he has black skin and gray gums. 

 I suggest that since Jiaogulan should be given 20 minutes before a meal that you feed it with a very small amount of a carrier, some moisture to help it stick and nothing else. I use about ¼ cup Stabul1. For years I added a drop of water to make the jiaogulan stick to the pellets. Recently I've used a drop of oil for the same purpose. 

Any horse in pain can be picky about supplements. I'm going through the same thing right now. Often it's the salt. An easy solution is to feed salt on hay that's been hosed. Sometimes you have to start over with supplements, introducing them one at a time to find the problem ingredient. You can divide supplements into two feedings, one AM, one PM, until your horse gets used to them. Also since you're syringing Metformin, check Sunny's mouth and lips for signs of ulcers or swelling.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Susan Carroll
 

Yes, I'm checking after syringing the metformin.  I follow it with the DC syringing.  I'm thinking that might work as a rinse.  Pink gums are certainly easier on a white leopard, except last night his nose was red from all the rubbing trying to graze thru his muzzle.  Should the pink be after administration, or stay that way?  He was pink on the muzzle and eyelids last night, but not at all this morning.  I'm up to 3/4 scoop 2x's day.  I'm guessing I'm needing the higher doses due to the DC?  Also, any recommendations on approved treats for the supplements?  He has quit eating the Stabul1.  He was eating his supplements until recently, now he won't touch anything they are on.  He isn't be deceived by light sprinkling.
--
Susan C from GA 2022
Sunny Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Sunny
Sunny Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274055


 

Hi, Susan.
I don't see pinker gum for 12 hours. That doesn't mean Jiaogulan isn't working. Just be sure you see an effect within an hour or so after syringing. I don't know the size of your scoop, so I can't comment on whether that seems like a lot or a little. I used powdered jiaogulan and give one mare 2 teaspoons, the other with gray gums almost 3 teaspoons. This can change from batch to batch because it is a nonstandarized herbal.

Please see the picky eater's checklist on enticing a fussy eater. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Picky%20Eaters%20Checklist.pdf 
My go-to enticements are a tiny bit of CocoSoya granular, FORCO and for one, Fiber Force. Sometimes a drop of high quality oil (olive, CocoOmega Oil) does the trick. Don't add too many things together, where you end up with a gourmet assortment of exotic flavors. Sometimes the horse craves boring -- ODTBC, for example. Pick your battles. Start with a carrier your horse will eat. Slowly add just a little (even just a teaspoon) of the supplement. I grind things into powder with Stabul1. 

If you search messages for "Picky," you'll find dozens of messages with suggestions.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Susan Carroll
 

Thanks, that gives me some options to explore.
--
Susan C from GA 2022
Sunny Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Sunny
Sunny Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274055