L-glutamine


Lamourah Perron
 

I would like to know if I could add L- glutamine to my mares feed.
She is on tested hay(Thimothy) and minerals balanced by an equine nutritionist. No pasture since early last September.
Her minerals are added to soaked Thimothy hay pellets that are also tested. I add salt, apple cider vinegar, Vit E, ground flax and Jiaogulan.

She had a bout of winter laminitis in February. X-rays were done in April. Thin soles with slight rotation and toe drop.
She is being trimmed every 4 weeks now and I rasp hoof wall back in between. I also apply Hoof Armour weekly. She was in boots with thick pads until she was comfortable to go without again.

Would the L- Glutamine be a good addition to her diet? She is and Easy Keeper and suspect of EMS or IR. Blood tests will be done once Covid has lightened and no longer bogging down shipping into the US.
 
Thank you
Lamourah
--
Lamourah Perron
British Columbia, Canada 2020


Cindy Q
 
Edited

Hello Lamourah

Welcome to the group!

1) You asked if you could add L-glutamine. It is safe for EMS and there are some discussions here on ECIR on it helping horses with diarrhea. Searching the group, I see that Dr Kellon has recommended some amounts depending on the situation 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?p=recentpostdate%252Fsticky%2C%2C%2C100%2C2%2C0%2C0&q=l-glutamine  . You have not mentioned why specifically you think she needs the l-glutamine so if there's any special concern, do mention.

2) Is your equine nutritionist balancing according to the NRC Plus/ Dr Kellon's recommendations? You can read more about this under the diet section below.

Below is our official welcome letter and it will cover many details on the Diagnosis, Diet, Trim + Exercise (when the horse is comfortable to) protocols recommended by ECIR. You can get more detailed advice if you complete your case history for your mare. Always a good time to get started without the pressure and stress of an acute episode! Without further ado, here is the welcome letter:

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Lamourah, 

Take a look through the Diagnosis section of Cindy's welcome email.  I've been sending my horse's bloodwork to U Guelph through the pandemic with no issues.  That is the lab in Canada ECIR recommends.  I request their "PPID" package, which includes insulin, glucose and ACTH.  Their "EMS" Package is fine, too, but it includes leptin, which is outsourced to Cornell and greatly increases the cost, and T4 which I don't consider to be particularly useful because it's almost always low in our EMS horses.  ECIR no longer recommends doing leptin for diagnosis.  It's a "nice to know", not necessary.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lamourah Perron
 

Hi Kristen
Where are you located? My vet work with a lab across the line. I am wondering how long it would take to shop from ural, southern BC.

Lamourah 



Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...>
Date: 2021-06-06 9:20 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ECIR] L-glutamine

Hi Lamourah, 

Take a look through the Diagnosis section of Cindy's welcome email.  I've been sending my horse's bloodwork to U Guelph through the pandemic with no issues.  That is the lab in Canada ECIR recommends.  I request their "PPID" package, which includes insulin, glucose and ACTH.  Their "EMS" Package is fine, too, but it includes leptin, which is outsourced to Cornell and greatly increases the cost, and T4 which I don't consider to be particularly useful because it's almost always low in our EMS horses.  ECIR no longer recommends doing leptin for diagnosis.  It's a "nice to know", not necessary.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
--
Lamourah Perron
British Columbia, Canada 2020


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I'm in rural northern BC.  I don't know how long it takes to ship but it gets sent by courier with the fastest service we can get here, frozen and with ice packs.  I haven't seen any signs of sample degradation, like unusually low glucose.  I usually ask that they send the sample early in the week, even if it means holding it over the weekend in the freezer.  My vet arranges the shipping so I don't actually know the specifics.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lamourah Perron
 

Cameo just had another bout. No change in diet, access to grass nor recent trim. The only change was the weather. It went from very hot to cool.

The same thing was one of the factors with her bout in the winter. Mild temps to very cold.

I am wondering if this is telling is the cause of her laminitis.





Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...>
Date: 2021-06-07 7:37 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ECIR] L-glutamine

I'm in rural northern BC.  I don't know how long it takes to ship but it gets sent by courier with the fastest service we can get here, frozen and with ice packs.  I haven't seen any signs of sample degradation, like unusually low glucose.  I usually ask that they send the sample early in the week, even if it means holding it over the weekend in the freezer.  My vet arranges the shipping so I don't actually know the specifics.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
--
Lamourah Perron
British Columbia, Canada 2020


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Colder temperatures do increase insulin and cause laminitis-related pain, but can also increase pain due to damaged circulation that gets worse with colder temps.  Have you tried wool socks in her boots when it gets cooler?  If its related to circulation that should help.  If its related to increasing insulin, then the diet needs to be tightened up (if possible) or medications can be tried like Metformin.  Seeing a case history and any bloodwork results would help us advise you on this.

Do you test the soaked timothy pellets?  I wonder if you should try a safer carrier, like soy hull pellets or rinsed-soaked-rinsed beet pulp.  Or soaked Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes (these make a wonderful carrier for minerals when soaked to a damp mash), which are guaranteed to be less 10% ESC + starch.  Timothy pellets tend to be low in sugar but there are no guarantees unless you test each bag.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lamourah Perron
 

Hi Cindy
Why I am interested in adding L-glutamine is because it helps to absorb insulin from what I have read. I have a Morgan mare who maybe IR and has had 2 bouts of laminitis. 

Her hay has been tested as per recommendations.

I will be doing a case history.

Lamourah 





Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Cindy Q <quarian@...>
Date: 2021-06-06 8:35 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ECIR] L-glutamine

Hello Lamourah

Welcome to the group!

1) You asked if you could add L-glutamine. It is safe for EMS and there are some discussions here on ECIR on it helping horses with diarrhea. Searching the group, I see that Dr Kellon has recommended some amounts depending on the situation 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?p=recentpostdate%252Fsticky%2C%2C%2C100%2C2%2C0%2C0&q=l-glutamine. You have not mentioned why specifically you think she needs the l-glutamine so if there's any special concern, do mention.

2) Is your equine nutritionist balancing according to the NRC Plus/ Dr Kellon's recommendations? You can read more about this under the diet section below.

Below is our official welcome letter and it will cover many details on the Diagnosis, Diet, Trim + Exercise (when the horse is comfortable to) protocols recommended by ECIR. You can get more detailed advice if you complete your case history for your mare. Always a good time to get started without the pressure and stress of an acute episode! Without further ado, here is the welcome letter:

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





--
Lamourah Perron
British Columbia, Canada 2020


Lamourah Perron
 

Hi Ktisten
I have her back in boots with socks, as her heels rub sometimes.
It is typical Spring weather in BC. So not to cold but her last bout the temps changed from very hot to cold.

I gave her a homeopathic remedy Aconite, 3 doses 20 minutes apart on the first day along with a hoof soak in Epsom salts and warm water to draw toxins. I  gave her a dose, 1/4 tablet of previcox. She bounced back quickly.

I am not sure yet as the cause. I will get to having her blood work done but we do not have a local vet and timing of appointments is unperdictable.  

My vet does not believe in fasting for blood work. I am also concerned about the sample being comprised as she is 2 hours away and will not guarantee a successful sample with ship times etc.

The only carrier I can for get for minerals is Thimothy hay pellets. I contacted the rep and was sent an analysis. See attached.

I do soak the Thimothy hay pellets as a carrier but when I clicker train  I do not. She get about a quart a day un soaked during training.

I cannot get beetpulp without molasses here. I was using Coolstance but my equine nutritionist said not to as it is to high in fat. I cannot get Triple Crown Thimothy Hay cubes either.

What are your thought on this article about feeding beetpulp with molasses?

https://rivasremedies.com/blog/feeding-your-horse-beet-pulp-the-myths-and-the-facts/

Would Metformin, or such be given without a blood test?

I am taking a workshop in Hoofcare from Hoof Geeks starting tomorrow.

Thank you for all you do.
Lamourah 






Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...>
Date: 2021-06-08 9:57 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ECIR] L-glutamine

Colder temperatures do increase insulin and cause laminitis-related pain, but can also increase pain due to damaged circulation that gets worse with colder temps.  Have you tried wool socks in her boots when it gets cooler?  If its related to circulation that should help.  If its related to increasing insulin, then the diet needs to be tightened up (if possible) or medications can be tried like Metformin.  Seeing a case history and any bloodwork results would help us advise you on this.

Do you test the soaked timothy pellets?  I wonder if you should try a safer carrier, like soy hull pellets or rinsed-soaked-rinsed beet pulp.  Or soaked Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes (these make a wonderful carrier for minerals when soaked to a damp mash), which are guaranteed to be less 10% ESC + starch.  Timothy pellets tend to be low in sugar but there are no guarantees unless you test each bag.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
--
Lamourah Perron
British Columbia, Canada 2020


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If you read this is a bona fide scientific article I'd like to see it. As far as I know, that's wrong. L-glutamine in humans can lower fasting blood sugar but it likely does this because it can increase insulin secretion https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33826912/ .
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 08:10 PM, Lamourah Perron wrote:
What are your thoughts on this article about feeding beet pulp with molasses?
Hi, Lamourah.
If you process the beet pulp with molasses by rinsing, soaking and rinsing it again, it should be safe to feed an equine with EMS. ECIR has a detailed file containing lots of information about feeding beet pulp:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Beet%20Pulp 
I especially recommend this document about the basics:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Beet%20Pulp/Beet%20Pulp%20Basics%20–%20How%20to%20use%20BP%20in%20Your%20Equine’s%20Ration.pdf 

Here's part of the linked information:

"Rinsing before soaking will help remove dust and surface iron. Draining in a colander and rinsing until the water runs clear after soaking will help remove residual molasses–this is effective if you are unable to get plain (no molasses added) beet pulp."

ESC at or above 10% is not safe for an equine with EMS. There is another reason that we rinse, soak and rinse (RSR) beet pulp. In some regions of the country, the iron content of unsoaked beet pulp shreds is quite high. Some horses are susceptible to iron overload, and feeding BP with that level of iron adds a lot of iron to the diet. I won't comment on the article you linked other than to note some claims conflict with the ECIR document. Beet pulp shreds that are prepared using RSR as recommended should make beet pulp with molasses safe to feed.  
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
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Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Lamourah, 

Cass has answered your question about beet pulp - I agree with her and would rinse-soak-rinse it.  Your timothy pellet analysis didn't show up because attachments do not work in this forum.  You can upload a pdf if it to your Case History Folder, or a photo of it to your Case History Album.

My vet travels 6 hrs to visit us 2x a year.  After she pulls blood, I run it down to the local small animal clinic, and they process it, freeze it, and ship it on ice using the pre-addressed courier envelope my equine vet provides.  If there is a nearby small animal clinic, maybe you could arrange something similar?  Or, if as your vet keeps your blood sample on ice or in a car-refrigerator, and gets back to the clinic to spin it within 2 hours, the sample will be fine.

After you have bloodwork done diagnosing your horse with IR, you could discuss a prescription for Metformin.  You might want her on it right away if her insulin is dangerously high, or you might want to reserve it for emergencies, such as a laminitis flareup or priactively if she was to get onto grass by accident.

I took the Hoof Geeks course last summer and loved it!  I hope you do to!  They are very supportive of ECIR.  Unlike Riva's Remedies, we are a free volunteer service offering advice based on scientific literature and years of experience, and of course we are directed by a veterinarian.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
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