Lavinia and who ever new pics posted for critique


Julie Allen
 

we went ahead and trimmed cookie yesterday , with out mark ups..

who ever can take a look and give us some critique and any tweaks needed we would appreciate it. 

the new pics are marked 1-12 for the date, i have not figured out how to put them in better order..

will keep trying.. 

thanks
--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


 

Hi, Julie. The way to date your photos is to put the year first then month then day. 2022-01-12 is todays date. Computers automatically sort Files and photos labeled that way in order. It’s convenient when you have a lot of Photos. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Julie
There is a section in the Wiki called "Photos and Hoof Evaluation Help", with details of how we'd like you to name your photographs, and how to do it. You can click on the 'Wiki' tab in the main menu (in the left-hand column if you're on a computer), and here's the link: main@ECIR.groups.io | Wiki

HTH
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Julie Allen
 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Julie,

What are your collateral groove depths?

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Julie Allen
 


Deb Walker
 

Hi Julie - I got frustrated over pictures, labeling, etc. at first too. What the group wants is for the date to be first...that way the files auto list them most recent to oldest. Hang in there.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Julie Allen
 

Pretty sure I did that 
year , month , day 
I cannot do any better than that .. 

--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


 

Julie, if you go to this link, all your photos will appear with the image name superimposed on each.  Those are the names we’re asking you to change.  Right now, it’s easy to find them because they’re the most recent but when you begin adding more, it helps us to find them if we all follow the same naming convention.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Julie Allen
 

i guess I am not understanding what I need to do different I named them I put the date on them in the correct format ... 

im sorry my pathetic brain is not understanding what you are asking me to do.. 


--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Julie Allen
 

Dr K, 

2mm on both fronts measured with a tool not a guess.. 


--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Julie,

Hang in there, you're making progress. I took a look at the photos and relabeled the hinds as they were reversed. You have the dates done correctly, just need to identify the hooves after the date, rather than before. Take a look at how I've labeled the hind feet laterals to see how all the photos should be labeled to keep them sorting properly in your album over time:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/271132/3365123?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0

The trim is moving in the right direction but looks like it still needs some tweaks. All four feet appear to be laterally high - or they might be medially low. You get the same result when looking at them but the fix depends on which problem is actually present. If the medial side is too low, DO NOT lower the lateral side to match - instead, allow the medial side to catch up. Heels appear to be too low relative to the vertical height in the front half of the feet - more so on the hinds than the fronts. Frogs should only have ragged bits removed in the future while leaving the calloused frog in place to protect the immature, waxy frog from being exposed. Looks like the toes could be pulled back a bit more at ground level but NOT if the soles are that thin right now.

Where is that 2mm collateral groove depth reading from  - near the apex of the frog or at the deepest point near the back of the foot? You are looking to have 15-18mm of depth so either way, the soles are critically thin and Cookie should be in padded boots at all times.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Julie,

At the deepest point at the heels?  Did you mean cm?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Julie Allen
 

Gah ! Yes ..cm .. math terms are not my strong suit ..

and yes at the heel ..

--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Julie Allen
 

Thanks Lavinia -
I am going to mull this all over -
but can you explain how her soles are thin ?
 I am not understanding this ?

I measured her collateral groove at the deepest point back of the foot - but I meant 2 cm not millimeters ..if that makes a difference . Even in her x-rays they looked good . To me - maybe I just do not understand what a good sole depth is .. do we wont like an inch or more then ? 

we still cannot pull her hind legs back to clean up her soles but with much coaxing she did allow us to put her hinds on the hoof Jack so we could do a very fast trim .
I will remind my daughter to leave the frogs alone - she has a tendency to like them to look nice .. 


Will take a minute later tonight to go and properly label the pics .
- thanks . 




--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,

OK, 2cm collateral groove depth at the heel is OK but nothing to spare, so no more heel lowering. This means her sole depth is not critically thin, like 2mm would be. Remember to take into account that she has some sinking, so the overall vertical height of her hoof capsules is going to need to be taller to accommodate the extra bony column within. That's the information the collateral groove depths give you - whether there is enough material between the bottom of the coffin bones and the ground.

You don't want to remove anything from any of her soles - just keep the toes backed up so the breakover at ground level is where the bony column needs it to be. She'll wear her soles down just by moving around and they also need to have a layer of calloused sole left in place for protection. Also don't want to be beveling the sole along the perimeter - only add bevels to the walls while allowing the sole at the perimeter to be in ground contact. Gradually remove the remaining bulbous laminar wedge material in the lower 1/4 of the front feet.

Making the frogs look nice is very common and it's hard to make yourself leave them alone but over-trimming them really doesn't help the horse at all. It just pleases our sense of "pretty".

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Julie Allen
 

 

Thanks Lavina !

a few questions for clarification..

"NOT lower the lateral side to match - instead, allow the medial side to catch up"

--------should we attempt to even this out now or wait a few weeks .. ?


"Heels appear to be too low relative to the vertical height in the front half of the feet more so on the hinds then the front "

------what does this mean exactly ? I thought getting the heels lowered was our goal .. ?

-------" bevel from wall only "
you mean just take the toe in from the outside Not from underneath ?

I did TOTALLY forget Cookie has some sinking ..so this would mean she needs a taller hoof for now ? To allow for the bones to " go back " to where they are supposed to be - I realize it doesn't exactly work like this but didn't know how to explain .. 

Thanks again ! 

-
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,

should we attempt to even this out now or wait a few weeks .. ?
---If the reason is that the taller side is at the correct height then the only way to fix it is to wait for the too-short side to catch up. Shortening the correct higher side just to match the too-short lower side means that now you have 2 problems instead of one and two wrongs don't make a right. Maintain the longer wall at the correct height while waiting for the shorter one to catch-up.

"what does this mean exactly ? I thought getting the heels lowered was our goal"
--Heel height is a relative measurement, meaning the reason to lower heels is because they are too tall for that horse at the that particular time, not because they look too high or don't match a predetermined length/height. Her collateral groove depths tell you there is no extra heel height there, as the sole depth is only 2cm. What is the collateral groove depth near the apex of the frogs?

" bevel from wall only "
"you mean just take the toe in from the outside Not from underneath? "

-- No, what I said was you
don't want to be beveling the sole along the perimeter - only add bevels to the walls, while allowing the sole at the perimeter to be in ground contact. I'm talking about the proper, healthy sole everywhere on the hoof. In this case, I specifically meant the sole everywhere except in the toes as Cookie's soles are beveled all the way around. Beveling is for the walls - NOT the soles - so there is little-to no ground contact or forces placed on them while the laminar connections are damaged so that more damage doesn't happen. The excess toe length at ground level that is beyond where the foot should end is material that shouldn't be there in the first place. To set the breakover where her bony column needs it to be, you will need to place a bevel behind what appears to be the white line and where the sole appears to be at the moment - but really isn't.

Cookie will need a taller-than-average hoof capsule for however long there is more bony column inside the hoof capsule than there should be. As/when/if the sinking resolves, her hoof capsule will become vertically shorter over time. By monitoring the collateral groove depth, you maintain her optimal sole depth at all times, regardless of the sinking status. That, in turn, keeps her hoof capsule at the proper height for her circumstances as well.

HTH.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Julie Allen
 
Edited

Lavina -
got it --- EXCEPT the bevel ? 
I cannot wrap my brain around what you mean ? 

I have tried - read it over and over -- 
but this is not connecting -

the trim done on her before us was a hired HCP as we were feeling inadequate- ( dates in 2021 - 12-23 ish I think I'll go look - am still go to re- label everything properly )
is the the correct bevel ? Is that what you are talking about ? 


I apologize for taking up so much time on this -but we really need to understand as we will be trimming cookies feet ourselves from here on ..

when I do my " normal " horses feet I do a slight  bevel all around holding rasp at a 45* angle .. is this incorrect ? We did attend Pete clinics - (and the no laminitis conference still have them --  )
and mentored under a pro who lives far far away now .

is there some literature or BETTER YET picture books for us to look at - that you can point us to ? 


PS - I sent this all to my daughter the up and coming trimmer and she gets it --- the bevel part --
But if possible I could still use some picture books 😬😬

thanks 
Julie .. 

--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132