Muscle and energy questions
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erica busch
Not sure if this is a question for this group.
Windy gets really tired going up hills, is losing topline, has very tight hind end muscles and has tied up 3 times over the last 10 years whenever she runs really fast either under saddle or loose. Most recently 2 years ago. I have had her 10 years and she has always been like this. She is girthy and grinds her teeth sometimes when saddling. She does not like to be touched and brushed and is antisocial. Lately she has less energy. She is in moderate work every day for at least 1/2-hour ring work trotting and cantering or 1/2-hour trail rides at a brisk walk but very steep hilly terrain. She can't make it up the hills without stopping a few times. I am not too heavy for her weighing only 130 pounds. I have had her diet balanced. She gets 57mg Equioxx 5 -7 days a week as needed to alleviate stiffness and shortstide. She doesn't track up and is not supple. I have had 2 separate vets check her and they suggest the Equioxx daily. She is not lame just off and seems to work out of it. Wondering about the Amino Acids, L-Car, Devils Claw, Phyto-Quench, or something else. She is PPID and IR. -- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Erica. Did your vets evaluate for ulcers and muscle diseases?
-- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Primary Responder Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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erica busch
From: Trisha DePietro
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2022 10:09 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Hi Erica. Did your vets evaluate for ulcers and muscle diseases?
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Erica,
What was done to evaluate for muscle disease? Biopsy? Who balanced her diet? What exactly is her diet now? -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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erica busch
Dr. Kellon,
Animal Genetics hair test for PSSM1 PSSM2 HYPP and RER. Dr. Gustafson balanced the diet just recently but I am having trouble understanding what to do. She needs more Phosphorous.
Hay in slow feed net 24/7 Timothy balance cubes Oats Iodized salt CA Trace -Plus Flax Vit E Optizyme Enzymes Equinity Amino Acids
Quantities are listed in Case History
Water has high levels of Manganese
Sincerely, Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2022 3:43 PM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Erica, www.drkellon.com
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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There is no validated genetic test for PSSM2. You need a biopsy for that, which would also tell you about her muscle condition in general.
The easiest way to increase phosphorus is a combination of wheat bran (very palatable) and monosodium phosphate (not so palatable!). Manganese is very difficult to remove from water but if you have an actual analysis Dr. Gustafson can factor that into your diet balancing. The level of amino acids in Equinety is way too low to have any effect in a horse. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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erica busch
Dear Dr. Kellon,
Without getting the muscle biopsy, what do you suggest?
Thank you. Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 3:52 PM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
There is no validated genetic test for PSSM2. You need a biopsy for that, which would also tell you about her muscle condition in general. www.drkellon.com
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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erica busch
Dear Dr. Kellon, I misspoke. Her diet is being balanced but it has not been completed. I am having trouble understanding it. Please check case history. So sorry, Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: erica busch
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 5:19 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Dear Dr. Kellon,
Without getting the muscle biopsy, what do you suggest?
Thank you. Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
There is no validated genetic test for PSSM2. You need a biopsy for that, which would also tell you about her muscle condition in general. www.drkellon.com
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Erica. What is it that you are confused about? Are you asking what to do with the balanced recipe once you receive it from Dr. Gustafson? Or something else you have a question about?
Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Primary Responder Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Erica. I reviewed your case history...ACTH is well controlled at 12.2. which is very good. How much Prascend/pergolide are you giving Windy?
I see she also has Free Fecal Water- as of June 2022- is this still occurring? If it is, Absorb all from Uckele should help to control it/resolve it. As Dr. Kellon has said, a muscle biopsy is the best way to diagnose a muscle disease which, if she were positive, would explain the tying up syndrome. And there are strategies to help with muscle diseases- so it is manageable, but throwing strategies at a horse, without a clear diagnosis, can be very costly and frustrating. If Windy were mine- I would talk to my vet about a muscle biopsy, see what it entails, cost, etc. Once you receive your mineral recipe - you can then send it to Horsetech or Uckele and they will make up the mineral mix for you. It will include a scoop for dosing. They will tell you how much of the mineral mix to give each day. The minerals are best given with what we call a "carrier". This can be Ontario Dehydrated cubes, Stabul 1, or Triple Crown Balanced timothy cubes. We use the smallest amount possible- its just enough (usually about a pound) dampened so the minerals stick to them. The only thing you would need to add to the carrier, besides the Minerals, is salt 1-2 oz per day, And Vitamin E. You can use Emcelle or lots of folks use vitamin E capsules and just drop the capsules into the carrier mix. Most horses will eat them. I saw that you were asking about how to increase the phospherus...Dr. Gustafson will balance your minerals to the hay sample analysis and she will tell you what to do with the phosphorus. I believe you won't need to feed anything extra...but again...Dr. Gustafson will advise you on that piece. hang in there Erica. There is a ton of information on this forum. At the top of this page, the main forum page, upper right corner is a search box. You can enter search words there and messages will pop up that you can review. It takes some time to read through things, but take one thing at a time. it will all fall into place. Windy is very fortunate to have an owner who is as involved as you are. Be sure you send your water results to Dr. Gustafson. It will be important for her to know the manganese level in your water. She can then adjust the minerals to off set the effects of the higher manganese. -- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Primary Responder Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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Try her on acetyl-L-carnitine, 1 gram per 100 lbs of body weight twice a day for two weeks then once a day. Also get some 50 mL syringes and syringe in 75 mL of Karo corn syrup immediately after work. This will help build up her glycogen stores without aggravating insulin.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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erica busch
DearDr. Kellon Thank you. Will do. I am also contacting my vet about a muscle biopsy. Sincerely, Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 10:08 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Try her on acetyl-L-carnitine, 1 gram per 100 lbs of body weight twice a day for two weeks then once a day. Also get some 50 mL syringes and syringe in 75 mL of Karo corn syrup immediately after work. This will help build up her glycogen
stores without aggravating insulin. www.drkellon.com
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Hi Erica, Seeing your most recent post, I went back through your case history and earlier posts. Your case history doesn’t indicate that Windy is on Prascend although you state in a post that she is on 1mg of Prascend. I’m not sure which is correct. As the TRH Stim test was done during the fall rise, we suggested taking her off any Prascend after the rise and retesting her 3 weeks later. You can do that anytime now as we are no longer in the rise. The next one will be along before you know it, so be sure to put that in your calendar. She should not be trailered, ridden, sedated or have any procedures done before drawing blood. Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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erica busch
Dear Martha,
I will update my CH as soon as possible but it is very difficult and I was thinking about waiting for the new computer format to come out.
I have attached the most recent blood work results. Windy gets 1 mg per day Prascend. My vet said not to bother with taking her off for 3 weeks and retesting. You are the second person in this group to suggest I do. Just wondering why?
I have not done biopsy. It is very expensive and intrusive. I did start Alcar and her muscles are much softer.
Sincerely, Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Martha McSherry via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2023 3:16 PM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Hi Erica, Seeing your most recent post, I went back through your case history and earlier posts. Your case history doesn’t indicate that Windy is on Prascend although you state in a post that she is on 1mg of Prascend. I’m not sure which is correct. As the TRH
Stim test was done during the fall rise, we suggested taking her off any Prascend after the rise and retesting her 3 weeks later. You can do that anytime now as we are no longer in the rise. The next one will be along before you know it, so be sure to put
that in your calendar. She should not be trailered, ridden, sedated or have any procedures done before drawing blood. Martha in Vermont July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Erica, Windy's only positive ACTH test was via TRH Stim in a time frame (August of 2021) when that test is not reliable. Her baseline ACTH for that test was within expected range. The only way to truly determine if she's PPID and in need of medication would be to stop the Prascend for 3 weeks to make sure it's all out of her system and then repeat the TRH Stim test. If you are going to have the vet out for spring shots/Coggins in February or March I'd plan on stopping the Prascend for 3 weeks before that appointment and have them redo the TRH Stim test so you have an accurate result for it.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Hi Erica,
Your question to me was addressed by Sherry and my response would be the same - unreliable test results. That makes 3 of us, or maybe 2.5, depending on who commented first. As a volunteer in the ECIR group, I’m not trained to assess muscle disease, but there are groups which are. Hoping someone will step up and direct you there. Is the Alcar helping with the issues which you mentioned in your first post? If you can avoid quoting the post you’re speaking to, that would be helpful for us. You don’t post enough to make it difficult to follow (yet) but the quoted material can complicate our reading. Which aspect of updating your case history do you find the most difficult? I’d be glad to help. I know the new form will be available at some point but you are here now, looking for help. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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erica busch
Dear Martha,
I don’t understand how to reply to emails. I’m not sure if I reply to group or sender. I barely know how to post. I don’t do this often so it is very confusing.
I tried to search retesting after seasonal rise but I have trouble with searching the files too.
If Windy needs Prascend and I take her off won’t she have more of a chance of Laminitis. Why would I risk it? How do I take her off the medication? I assume I wean her off. After I wean her off do I wait 3 weeks after the last pill?
Thanks Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Martha McSherry via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 10:11 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Hi Erica, Martha in Vermont July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Erica,
When you get a message from the group in the e-mail your reply will go to the group whether you hit reply as you would for any e-mail or if you choose view and reply online. Windy's response to TRH was so high I suspect she would test positive any time but the question is what does "positive" mean. Does it mean she has hypertrophy but is not putting out abnormal hormone levels or does it mean she is putting out abnormal levels just not enough ACTH to test abnormal at baseline yet. We don't know. Either way it's probably a good idea to give the Prascend to control it. With as low as her insulin was before you began Prascend I doubt there's much risk of laminitis if you stop it for a while. You can do a quick wean of half dose for a week then off, retest 3 weeks after off. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com BOGO 2 for 1 Course Sale Through End of January |
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erica busch
Thank you. Will do that.
I will be updating my CH ASAP after I get my new hay analysis. Also I’ll attempt to upload pictures and hoof xrays. When I contact Dr Gustafson on the balancing is that private messaging or through the Forum. All of my messages in email should have my signature through the Forum? I thank you and everyone for your patience
RE: ALCAR - I put Windy on ALCAR twice a day for 2 weeks and her muscles were less tight. Like a rump roast. Still tires when going up hills but some improvement. After two weeks on ALCAR I went to once a day. Her muscles got tight again. Went back to twice a day and muscles like a rump roast again. Much improvement going up hills and not tiring. Can I keep her on ALCAR twice a day.
BTW I give the Karo after exercise. Is there another product I can use that is not so “messy”? Sugar cubes or treats?
Thank you so much.
Erica
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2023 10:33 AM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Muscle and energy questions
Erica, www.drkellon.com
BOGO 2 for 1 Course Sale Through End of January
-- Erica Busch PA 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Windy%20Case%20History |
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Contact Dr. Gustafson privately. Yes, messages to the group need your information but that will be added automatically if you have put it into your subscription. Fine to give ALCar twice a day. I would stick with the Karo but you can try putting it in a bowl or her feed tube to lick up.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com BOGO 2 for 1 Course Sale Through End of January |
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