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My new mare is on Regumate having Cornell testing done?

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Hi Dr. Kellon/Group,

My husband purchased a new mare for me to compete dressage on (previously owned by a Vet who imported her to do jumping which the horse hated). Her registered name is Ciave but we all call her Bernice.

Tomorrow morning I am having both Pabatsa and Bernice tested for: I/G/ACTH/Leptin. My question is this: Bernice has been on compounded Regumate paste for the past 5 months. Will this in any way change the results? I'm testing her too because she has a huge appetite and last week my dressage coach/judge said that she looks fat. If I find out she is IR, should I stop giving her the Regumate? Her previous owner gave it to her during show season and why I'm continuing with it.

I need to core the stable's hay, it looks more Orchard these days than Timothy it's supposed to be. When I have all of these results I will start a CH for Bernice and add the results to Pabatsa's file. Thanks for any advice/help!
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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's possible being on Regumate could increase her insulin. If it's elevated, certainly retest her when off it.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon! Another question for you as I’m having Lupus cognitive issues and don’t remember...can they have their morning hay before the blood draws at 8:30? I believe the stable feeds their Timothy (has Orchard in it) between 7-7:30 am.

Thanks again!
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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Laura, ideally they should be fed their first meal of hay for the day at least 4 hrs before blood is pulled.  That is because there is an insulin spike associated with the first meal, if they have been without hay overnight, and it takes a few hours for it to come down to their normal/baseline level.  Alternatively you could arrange for them to have free-choice hay that lasts all night (like double their usual overnight ration, or put out a full bale to nibble on if it is safe to do do), so they won't have an insulin spike in the morning.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

To add to the comments on sampling, if you have to have an early morning vet visit it is better to have the horse fasted than to have insulin be elevated from a first meal of the day effect. Just remember the lab reference ranges won't be valid and a normal fasting insulin is well below 10. https://wp.me/p2WBdh-O3
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon,

I was just told the vet is late so will be pulling blood around 10:00 a.m. They were fed hay at 6:30. How does that now enter into the results?

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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laura,

I probably won't find it quickly, but I did just look at a study the other day that showed mean times of peak insulin after feeding.  I think you should be ok since it was hay not grain - the grain spike tends to more 'dramatic' than with just hay alone.  Will see if I can figure out which study that was and will share if I can.



Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laura,


A couple of things to keep in mind - this was a 4 horse study of 'cold blooded geldings'.  The hay was timothy and the meals were formulated to contain .54kg sugar and starch which is the 'regular horse' recommendation.  H = Hay.

"Meals significantly affected plasma insulin concentration 60–120 min post prandial, where the OB meal had the highest concentration followed by the BB, M and H meals. During the same time interval, the glucose concentration remained unaffected by meals. During the 120–180 min interval, insulin concentration was significantly (P < 0.01) higher on the M and OB meals as compared to the BB and H meals. The insulin concentration had decreased in the 180–330 min interval; however, it was still significantly (P = 0.01) higher than the H meal."



Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Speaking of Regumate does it cause a crazy increase in appetite or is IR to blame? She gobbles her hay so fast that after it gone, she starts eating shavings. I’m beside myself right now
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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Sherry Morse
 


Hi Laura,

How much does she weigh and how much hay is she eating?  Is it being fed loose or in nets?  If nets, what kind of nets? You can always use small hole nets and double net if needed to slow her down.

I don't have much experience with Regumate but never noticed an appetite increase in mares that were on it.



Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

IR could certainly do it. As for possible side effects of Regumate, it mimics the hormonal environment of pregnancy and human PMS.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Thanks Dr. Kellon I guess only the Cornell labs due in next week will be able to tell. A slow feeder was suggested. I can't use a hay net because she has a mild C3-4 arthritic change and I don't want to exacerbate it with tossing a hay net around to get the hay out. I've heard that the ones with metal grates can damage teeth, is that true?

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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Laura. Just something for you to consider...some folks build a box and place the hay net inside the box and anchor it to the bottom. This way, if your horse tries to pull the net out she can't and shod feet can't tango with the net. I have also seen some folks build a small roof ( above horse height of course) over the top of the box to protect hay from rain, snow, etc. This will elminate any tooth concerns with metal grates. I also give a free flake to my horse before giving them their haynets. I find that it takes the edge off and they don't attack the nets....( I weigh my net of hay and then pull out a flake to feed loose) My horses seem happier and my nets don't get huge holes! Also, once i get my hay flakes into the nets I actually pull the hay flake apart as much as possible- I have noticed that if I leave it in flake form it is really easy for the horse to pull out huge pieces of hay bunches because they are all stuck together....this keeps them engaged but not blowing through their ration.
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Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Laura
in addition to Trish’s excellent suggestions, I have found that tying the nets firmly top and bottom to a post or other structure (tree branch, fence, wall of barn etc) at around wither height prevents a lot of tossing around. I also use multiple nets with some on the ground  to encourage change of posture. M mare has suspected neck arthritis so I don’t want her standing in one spot for hours. The ones on the ground are attached inside tire feeders. 
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Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon and group members for your wonderful advice!! This definitely helps me out a lot.

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Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Just to add: do not use a metal grate on a feeder.  No matter what you hear or read, horse's teeth are not meant to eat through metal and they will chip off their front enamel.  Been there.

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Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Ronelle
 

Check out NibbleNet.  I bought a "sheet" of their webbing and made my own "grate".  I cut the webbing to size for my box, screwed it to wooden dowels and as long as I remembered to latch the lid (just a 2 by 6 frame), it worked for me.  I just dropped it on the hay and closed the lid.  I've since switched to nets as I can make a week in advance to make it easier to weigh the feedings and its easier for my neighbors who feed when I'm gone.
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Ronelle and Yoyo
2015 Bend, Or, US