Need assistance with trimming hooves and BCS


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Uploaded photos and X-rays .  No recent x-rays just ones taken last fall when acutely laminitic. Also have one body shot from that time and well as 2 recent ones, about a month apart for body condition scoring.  
 
I mistakenly put same LF Dorsal hoof photo in twice but don't know how to delete it.  Can you explain how or can someone do it for me?

Thanks
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Karen,

Please add the link to your photo album (https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817) to your signature.  To do that:

1) Go to this link to amend your auto-signature: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/editsub

2) Look at the bottom of that page for the window with your signature.

3) Paste the link to your photo album in the line below your Case History link. You may need to add a space after the link to make it live. 

4) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE!

To delete a picture: click on the picture, scroll to the bottom of the screen and click the "Edit button" and on the next screen click the "Delete Photo" button.  

As far as the photos - the sole shots do show that the flare is real and in general he has long toes and underrun heels which are a fairly common problem.  The x-rays show the long toes and very little sole which is probably still an issue.  On the bright side he's in much better condition as far as the amount of weight he's carrying than he was last fall.




Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Karen,

How is Apollo feeling now?   With Apollo's high insulin and pain in April, did soaking his hay help?  Metformin would be an option to bring down his insulin if it's still high and he's still sore.  Otherwise it sounds like you are doing everything you can.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

I added photo album link to my signature page; I thought I did yesterday but apparently didn't hit save button.  Deleted duplicate photo.  If you need them, we took photos of other hoof angles i.e. sole plane 2, concavity and heels.  Apollo's over due for trim as farrier was on cross country vacation for 3+ weeks.  Last trim May 6, next scheduled trim 6/17. 

Toes are getting long.  That could explain why last couple of days, he seems to stumble when stepping out of stall onto concrete aisle.  Wearing cloud boots with 3/4" pads (6# EVA foam from HappyHoofPads) 24/7 (front only).  Have 2 pairs of cloud boots with pads so boots changed daily.  When it rains, water gets inside Apollo's boots as he'd rather stand outside than under lean-to.  Then we leave his boots off overnight so his hooves dry out.  Has several inches of shavings in stall for comfort.

We have a hoof rasp but no nippers, hoof knife or stand to put his foot on.  Thinking about getting them so we can keep up on his trims instead of relying on farrier.  Current farrier started last October.  Previous one who requested x-rays didn't seem to trim him any different even though acutely laminitic.   RF toe crack visible on x-ray, no longer a problem but probably due in part to wearing boots.  Kelly from HappyHoofPads told me that sometimes with hoof cracks, the cause is actually a problem in opposite hoof not the one with crack.  

J-herb made a huge difference in Apollo's hoof comfort, no longer seems stiff in morning and stall isn't trashed.  Unfortunately, vet wasn't receptive to using metformin even though insulin was >200 but somehow Apollo seems to have avoided full blown laminitis.   Had TRH stim test for Dr. K's study as well as repeat insulin and glucose done; results pending.  Keeping my fingers crossed news will be good.  I'm rinsing his high iron hay to remove surface contamination then soaking for 1 hour before draining.  Almost out of hay so also gets Timothy balance cubes.  

--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Just for the record, Kelly from HappyHoofPads is wrong. Cracks come from hooves taking abnormal forces because the trim is not correct. Poor nutrition, etc can contribute and yes, overloading a compromised hoof from a problem on the other side doesn't help things, but it's not the primary cause.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

Hi, Karen. Thanks for adding the Photo Album link to your signature. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Yes, the toes are way too long. A hoof jack is helpful so you can put force into rasping the toes. So is a high quality professional rasp, not a feed store rasp. If Apollo is easy about trimming, the way to start is by taking a few strong strokes at the toes from 10 to 2 o’clock with every boot change. If I don’t do that, my horse outgrows her Clouds within a week or two. I can’t make much progress to change the trim but I can maintain it that way.

I leave nippers and hoof knives to my trimmer. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I'm sure with the hay soaking you will see a reduction in insulin.

Apollo's front feet have a lot of flaring all the way around the hoof (not just the toes) and extending up to the coronary band.  This is possibly from ongoing sub clinical laminitis due to high insulin causing stretched and disordered lamellae in the whiteline.  If you get his insulin down to safer levels you might see some tighter growth coming down, but the flares also need to be taken out of weight bearing so the new growth doesn't have the same tearing forces on it.  In some horses removing the flares doesn't bother them because they are already sore from standing on their soles and the flared walls aren't providing any support.  This was the case with my own horse and there are photos from 2017 in his album showing his flared hooves prior to trimming (June), and after removing the flares from weight-bearing (August).  In other horses, removing the flares can make them more sore because even flared walls can add some support to the soles.  Boots with pads are necessary in these situations.  You can focus on removing the toe flaring from 10-2 first to see how Apollo tolerates it, but eventually the side flares will need to be addressed, too.  

The hoof stand is nice to have but as Cass said a few swipes during boot changes, while the hoof is in your hand, will help.  I found with the 2 horses I trim with sore feet that they are fussy with hoof stands because they cannot easily put the hoof down for a rest, so instead I just hold the hoof in my hand and don't fight them when they need a break.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Thanks for info.  Actually when Apollo was foot sore, I couldn't really tell which was side more sore.  I had issues with previous farrier who had been trimming Apollo for 8 years.  Right hoof toe crack would come and go but he had it more often than he didn't.  Couldn't understand farrier's treatment approach which was to notch out crack every hoof trim.  Said he needed to clean out crack yet denied need for any other treatment.  When Apollo became acutely laminitic, farrier requested x-rays but then seemed to do same trim he had always done i.e. long toes on hoof x-rays.  Actually a blessing when he abruptly quit.  Current farrier seems to have a better idea about how to do balanced trims but I've also had some concerns.  Early on he was using hoof knife to remove some of Apollo's soles, especially on left front, most affected by laminitis.  When I questioned this, he said he had to remove calloused part of sole but this made sole uneven with small divets all over it.  Fortunately it has grown out fairly well.  Apollo scheduled for farrier trim tomorrow.  Will relay info other ECIR members have provided and keep fingers crossed he won't get upset.  He was okay with doing hoof photographs but felt they don't always accurately reflect what's going on with hoof because they're only two dimensional.  Really thinking I should learn to do my own trims so I'm not so dependent upon someone else and would have full control of what kind of trim he gets.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Hi Cass,

Do you have any recommendations regarding brand of rasp and where I could purchase a high quality one?  We bought a "Tough-1 farrier rasp" from Tractor Supply. which seemed fairly decent but wasn't very expensive.  I suppose you get what you pay for so probably will need to upgrade.  Over-all I would say Apollo is fairly easy to trim although better easier with front than back hooves.  Personally, I think a hoof stand would make rasping easier but a good one is expensive.  Farrier's coming to do trim tomorrow.  Interestingly, Apollo doesn't seem to outgrow his Cloud boots between every 4 week trims.  Maybe that's part of his problem, i.e. slow hoof growth. Hopefully, that will improve with more time on a better diet.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Hi Kristen,

Agree with subclinical laminitis. I suspect Apollo suffered from it for years due to undiagnosed IR.  Early PPID last fall tripped him over the edge and he became acutely laminitic.  His previous owner reported problems with chronic thin soles and intermittent lameness especially during summer.  It's very frustrating that despite yearly vet exam with geriatric blood tests and year round farrier trims every 4 weeks, Apollo still didn't get the care he needed.  Apollo had low thyroid levels for at least 3 years before being diagnoses with IR/PPID.  I first read about subclinical laminitis on website of a farrier in UK.  Further research lead me to ECIR's website which helped get Apollo properly diagnosed.  Unfortunately, treatment is proving very challenging and I'm beginning to feel I'll never get him stabilized.  Vets in my area don't seem to be very knowlegeable about treating IR and it's frustrating to know there is more I could do if vet was willing to try medications to bring down insulin.  Fortunately, soaking his hay and limiting supplemental forage to timothy balanced cubes has helped.  Clinically he looks and seems to feel better than he ever has.  Awaiting some blood test results which I will post soon. 

Have been using Cloud boots with thick foam pads.  Initially used pieces cut from old neoprene saddle pad because was only thing that made him comfortable.  Also used a sinker pad technique recommended by hoof trimmer i.e. trace hoof, then bevel out edge so horse weight bears more on pad under sole than on wall of hoof.  This seemed to help get him more comfortable but when he started moving more, gorilla tape holding them on would rip and they wouldn't stay in place.  Currently using 3/4" 6# sinker pad from happyhoofpad.com which seem to work well.  Will be replacing pads after farrier does trim tomorrow.  Should his Cloud boot treads be beveled?  Our farrier had use rasp fronts to improve breakover.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Just a suggestion but if you bevel his walls out of weightbearing you won't need a special pad of any type - just experiment to find the consistency he likes best. Repeat films, at least laterals, would be very valuable at this point.  His heels are underrun and feet may be too long.  This deprives him of the support and cushioning of a robust frog and digital cushion.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Apollo's doing very well despite our vet not being receptive to using metformin.  No heat or elevated pulses but was foot sore and especially stiff in mornings although improved once got moving.  J-herb recommended by Dr. K really helped.  Soaking hay also seems to have helped.  Recently read on this site that only wet chemistry should be used for hay analysis.  Had our hay tested by local certified forage lab last October; results < 10% ESC + starch but when I checked with this lab, I was informed only mineral portion was wet chemistry and everything else was NIR.  They "reassured" me that NIR results were within 2.5% of wet chemistry values, I politely informed them that might be enough to affect a horse with severe IR like Apollo.  They said I could request wet chemistry hay analysis but that it would not include ESC.  According to thelaminitissite.org in UK, there are no labs there or in Europe that do ESC by wet chemistry.  I used info from ECIR website last fall before I joined ecir.groups.io and unfortunately, the "wet chemistry only" hay analysis recommendation was not mentioned there.  Could it be added so no one else makes the same mistake I did?
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo

Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You can send your hay to Dairy One (same as  Equi Analytical) for wet chem ESC + starch. https://dairyone.com/services/forage-laboratory-services/international-sample-submittal/ . You want profile 10 here https://dairyone.com/download/forage-forage-submission-form/?wpdmdl=14351&masterkey=5d41c7b773d79  for a complete analysis including minerals.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

I've wondered about if or when I should be do repeat x-rays.  Doesn't ECIR recommend doing the with identifiable landmarks?  Not sure our current vet would do them that way.  Set of x-rays he did, which I have posted, weren't even labelled left and right hoof.  Fortunately, I could tell which was which by toe crack visible on RF hoof (and which is no longer there).   It probably would cost more but maybe a vet from equine clinic would do them that way.  I will bring up hoof issues with farrier when he does trim tomorrow.   Will be posting recent lab results.  Feel discouraged.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If you have tape and paper clips, or anything else metal like nails, you can tape them to the coronary band and tip of the frog. Shouldn't cost you anything!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

Karen, I’m far from an expert on rasps. If you search Messages for something like “good rasp” you can review opinions. I use a Heller rasp, the Excel. Next I’ll try the Heller rasp for hard dry hooves. Others like Bellota rasps. They don't last for years, just fyi, and mine probably could be replaced after several years. I keep it a case to protect it from rust. Here's an example of the opinions you'll find from Cindy, an ECIR volunteer:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/248026 

I did invest in a Hoofit Stand for ponies. I don't see my model any more. It’s a little less money and fine for my small mare. If you buy one, have your trimmer show you how to use a stand for the front hooves— where to place it in front of the horse, how to block the horse from pulling its front hoof off the stand by using your body. The hinds are easier using the cradle. 

As for rasping the breakovers on the Clouds, definitely follow Lavinia's diagram. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/album?id=45323 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Karen,

The information for hay testing on the ECIR website is at DDT +E – Diet | ECIR Group, Inc. (ecirhorse.org) and clearly says to send the hay to Equi-Analytical and request the 603 Trainer test.  The specifics on this test are outlined on the Equi-Analytical website: https://equi-analytical.com/feed-and-forage-analysis/analytical-service-packages/   




Sherry Morse
 

Karen,

Please read the Wiki article on getting good x-rays (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Getting-Good-X-rays) for information on how to mark landmarks on the hooves.




a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Sherry,
You are correct, that is the recommendation on ecirhorse.org but I didn't realize it was because it's the only known lab doing wet chemistry hay analysis for ESC and that NIR is not reliable.  I needed to sample 3 small lots of hay so I used a local lab that works with local ag coop and I didn't have to ship my samples which helped save some money (so I thought).  I don't know how I'm going to find hay for Apollo.  There's grass hay for sale locally but not any that's been tested.  When I extend my search to commercial hay growers "specializing" in low sugar hay, they may do wet chemistry analysis but it doesn't include ESC either, just NSC.  Is there a way to use NSC levels to purchase hay?
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Karen, 

If NSC is under 10%, then ESC+starch will be too.

NSC = WSC + starch
WSC = ESC + fructans
So, NSC = ESC + frucans + starch.

Fructans are not an issue so we don't normally use WSC or NSC when choosing hay since it may eliminate many hays that would actually be safe.  But if you have nothing else to go on, you can use NSC.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album