New Case History - apf dosing protocol


Patty
 

We've reached Inky's 1.5 mg Prascend daily dose but he still is showing signs of inappetence.  I see that APF is recommended but I have not found any dosing instructions.  
May I also ask, are Balanced Timothy Cubes fed instead of hay or just as a carrier? 
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

APF dose for an average size horse is 8 to 10 mL. Cubes can be fed either way.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Patty
 

Thank you.  Do you give APF 8-10 mL daily?  Is it given for only as long as the inappetence lasts?  Do you taper off of it?  Is it given with food? Administer orally via syringe?  Is it well-accepted or is it recommended to mix with something for it to be palatable?  I would imagine if it’s that small of a dose that it can’t be added topically to other food?
Finally, are there people who feed the Timothy balance cubes as the sole forage? In which case is there a source to buy in bulk to lower the cost?  Any idea if bought in quantity for what length of time it can be stored and maintain freshness/viability?


On Oct 20, 2021, at 2:23 PM, digestnoreply@groups.io wrote:

 
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TOPICS IN THIS DIGEST: 
.
1.  Re: Looking for a supplement for sore joints,stiffness (3)
2.  Re: New Case History - apf dosing protocol
3.  Re: Chicy had bumps all over body (2)
4.  Re: Omega 3 as a pellet? (2)
5.  Re: Nitrate question
6.  Dutch Insulin and Glucose
7.  Re: Devil’s claw bitters content
8.  Re: Not familiar with the use of Devil’s Claw
MESSAGES: 
.
1a.  
Re: Looking for a supplement for sore joints,stiffness 
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 06:02:07 CST 

Cyndi,

She could be stiff or weak due to not moving much but there's really no good way to  separate that from foot discomfort other than a nerve block. Definitely don't force her if she doesn't want to walk but she should have an area where she can move on her own.
-- 
Eleanor in PA 

www.drkellon.com  
EC Owner 2001

 

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1b.  
Re: Looking for a supplement for sore joints,stiffness 
From: CYNDI CARLSON
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:08:43 CST 

Dr. Kellon,
I do believe her feet are sore as she is shifting back on her heels.I have been rubbing her legs with lineament ,it seems to help her.She has a large sandy area to move around. She is active in her pen at night as there are manure piles spread out in her pen. During the day she doesn’t move much, I find it interesting she moves, and eats more at night.
-- 
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021

 

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1c.  
Re: Looking for a supplement for sore joints,stiffness 
From: Martha McSherry
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:02:19 CST 

Cyndi, have you ever asked your vet to look at her eyes?  I wonder if it’s some sort of photo sensitivity?  Is it still hot there so it’s more comfortable outside when it’s cooler?  I know I asked once about where her “buddies” hang out but you said she avoids them.  Is that a part of this pattern?
-- 

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

 

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2a.  
Re: New Case History - apf dosing protocol 
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 06:04:51 CST 

APF dose for an average size horse is 8 to 10 mL. Cubes can be fed either way.
-- 
Eleanor in PA 

www.drkellon.com  
EC Owner 2001

 

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3a.  
Re: Chicy had bumps all over body 
From: Jean Kemmerer
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 06:05:58 CST 

Does she have hives??  Could be an environmental allergy.
-- 
Jean and Amber (over the bridge) 

Nikki (EC) and Buster (IR)

South Carolina

August 2004

NRCPlus 0412; CIR 0813, 1211; NAT 0612

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gloria%20and%20Amber

 

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3b.  
Re: Chicy had bumps all over body 
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 06:23:40 CST 

Hives are considered a severe reaction to pergolide (although it could be something else).  Don't give any more and contact your vet for an action plan.
-- 
Eleanor in PA 

www.drkellon.com  
EC Owner 2001

 

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4a.  
Re: Omega 3 as a pellet? 
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 06:12:51 CST 

Marcy,

You could feed the Nibblers but the omega-3 level is much lower and at the lowest recommended feeding level you would need 9 oz/day so a bag lasts only 6 days. You get more omega-6 with the Nibblers too.

Are you feeding it in a dry meal? Many horses don't like fine supplements.  Try spraying the food with water or oil then mix in the flax so it sticks.
-- 
Eleanor in PA 

www.drkellon.com  
EC Owner 2001

 

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4b.  
Re: Omega 3 as a pellet? 
From: LJ Friedman
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 09:46:58 CST 

have you used triple crown golden flax?  
-- 
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

 

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5a.  
Re: Nitrate question 
From: chemelle
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:48:35 CST 

Thanks again - I will look into the iodine supplementation
-- 
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380

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6a.  
Dutch Insulin and Glucose 
From: Rebecca Reddicliffe Bigelow
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:07:58 CST 

Dutch had a laminitis episode in April of this year. Blood sample results were Insulin of of 143 uU/ml and Glucose 125.8 mg/dL When we diagnosed the laminitic episode and realized how high his numbers were the vet started him on Thyro L 3 scoops a day and Metformin 10 tabs twice a day. My vet and I continue to try to get Dutch's Insulin and Glucose under control.  In July of this year we finally got his insulin into normal range at 19.5  and glucose of 82. The vet wanted to reserve the Metformin for another emergency like the laminitis episode so she suggested we discontinue it and decreased the Thyro L to 2 scoops a day. When we retested 30 days later insulin went to 70.3 and glucose of 82. At this point we put the Metformin back in at the 10 tabs twice a day. Since his weight has stabilized (he lost quite a bit of weight on the Thyro L even though I didn't think he needed to) we have lowered the Thyro L to 1 scoop with the intention of discontinuing it little by little. So on 10/15 the results now show insulin at 21.4 and glucose of 125. His diet has been all Timothy Balance Cubes with only a pound or less of LMF Low Cab Complete for treats. He's fed 4 times a day and has treat balls with Timothy Balance Cubes with a few LMF pellets between his meals. I'm at a loss as to what's happening. I updated his case history so the whole diet can be seen. His meals contain nothing but Timothy Balance Cubes and we're testing 5 hours after a meal. He's on 1 mg of Prascend a day. His ACTH on 4/21 was 4.9 and the one taken in 8/15 was  5.1 which is right in the middle of the normal range for the vets lab levels. I'd really appreciate any input as to what might be going on and what to do if his glucose stays high. We're retesting on the 21st to check for an anomaly but the vet assures me the last sample was handled promptly and properly. Any help would be appreciated.
-- 
Rebecca and Dutch
July 2009, Sacramento, California
Case History, https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rebecca%20and%20Dutch%20-%20Snuggles/Dutch  .
Dutch Photos, https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=857  .

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7a.  
Re: Devil’s claw bitters content 
From: Brenda Gasch Mittelstadt
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:17:18 CST 

HI Kim,

I saw no change in appetite for mare or gelding in my care with added DC. It has worked incredibly well for their arthritis and the mare has some old injury or something that caused her miserable leg and body spasms at times and with the DC they have not come back at all and spasms are also gone. So it's been pretty great for her. I only give A.M. but she is pretty stiff by morning so I need to get on a schedule twice daily (which is suggested). 

I buy from Bulk Supplements via Amazon at this time, though I need to find another animal source of the powder if anyone knows bulk purchase of DC anyplace? 

Good luck to you! 
-- 
Brenda
September 2020, Dodgeville WI USA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Brenda%20and%20Stormy/Stormy%20and%20Brenda  .
Stormy Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263428 

 


 

 

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8a.  
Re: Not familiar with the use of Devil’s Claw 
From: Brenda Gasch Mittelstadt
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:23:49 CST 

Hi Suzanne,

I was told that Previcox/Equiox won't touch laminitis pain and that is what I needed to use it for - though my vet had me using previcox after 10 days of bute initially (the bute worked). The Equiox/Previcox did not seem as effective and did not touch arthritis pain they had plus DC is better on the body (safety). It works great for my two small horses for stiffness and for a spasm issue my mare had (unknown source but suspected old back injury - she is a pasture companion elderly gal). 

I've been getting mine from Bulk Supplements via Amazon but know Uckele has some, but I think it has yucca which is contraindicated for the PPID/IR horse I believe. 

Devil's Claw has worked quite amazingly well for us. 

Good Luck
-- 
Brenda
September 2020, Dodgeville WI USA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Brenda%20and%20Stormy/Stormy%20and%20Brenda  .
Stormy Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263428 

 


 

 

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--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019


 

Hi Patty,

I’ve given APF in the amount Dr. Kellon suggests daily but I think there’s a fairly large range of what dose is effective.  It’s not entirely for horses with PPID but it happens to work well for that so you can keep giving it if you like the results you get.  We generally advise giving it for a few days before starting pergolide and before dosage increases.  If you are heading toward a specific dose before further testing, I would continue it until a few days after you reach that dose.  The idea is that it will prevent inappetence, although it may not do that completely, so you would have difficulty knowing when it’s safe to stop based on that.  It does not need to be tapered, on or off.  I give it with a syringe as some horses love it and some absolutely do not.  If you add it to the food, you stand a chance of having the entire meal upended.

I purchase timothy balance cubes by the pallet directly through my grain dealer.  I’m not sure he gives me a break on the price for that quantity but it’s the best way to assure that I’m not scrambling for some at the last moment.  He delivers my cubes with my bedding within a week after I request a delivery so I just keep that in mind.  They do the loading, transport and stacking.  One of my ponies eats it exclusively as, in his late 30’s, he hasn’t much chew power left.  I honestly don’t know how long the shelf life is but most likely similar to hay.  Since it’s protected from the light in a bag, probably even longer.

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Cindy Giovanetti
 

Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes makes up 90-95 percent of my guys’ diet.  They do get a few bites of some other things.  But it’s the Timothy Balance Cubes that we count on.  I think most bagged food has a shelf life of about six months. 

 

Cindy


--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Shawn Gould
 

Hi Patty,
Where I use to live in No Cal I could buy my Triple Crown Timothy Balance cubes at Tractor Supply. All Triple Crown products are cheaper there than my feed stores. Now I live in San Diego and my local Tractor Supply doesn’t carry them and it would be a special order. I may do eventually but there is the added pain of the trip and loading and unloading. Maybe Tractor Supply near you carries the cubes or you can order.
--
Shawn and Candy
Dec 2020, Santa Cruz, CA
Candy Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shawn%20and%20Candy
Candy Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258140


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

All Tractor Supply stores have home delivery. I think it's free above a $49 purchase but not positive on those details.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Patty
 

I’ll check into that! Thank you, I appreciate the suggestion.
--
Patty and Inky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PATTY%20AND%20INKY
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268362
horse located in SE Wisconsin
owner located in north suburb of Chicago
joined Aug 2019


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Patty,
My local TSC in No Cal (Brentwood) used to special order for me and another gal at my barn so they would carry a monthly allotment based on what we needed. 

My boarding barns owner decided to bring them into the barn's feed store for us so he gets a pallet ordered for us, we have a few people using them now since I recommend them to everyone :).

If you have a local feed supply that sells Triple Crown products they can probably add some to their order if tractor supply doesn't work out.

Thanks Nancy 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104