New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal


Qhgirl
 

Hello Everyone,

Glad to have found this group through my friend Kim. This is my first experience with founder.  Chicy was a 16 year old maiden mare who was bred on June 26 via AI and had a viable foal at 28 days.  All was going great then suddenly last week she began acting like she was painful all over and limping on her left front.  Several horses in the area are being diagnosed with abscesses and I thought perhaps that was the case. I only allow her on grass 2 hours a day so founder was not even on my mind.  My vet and other local vets in this area are short handed and I asked my vet about what I was seeing (they actually AI'd Chicy) and without seeing her they said it was probably hormones from being in foal and to give her a gram of bute and set up an appointment for the following week which was the earliest they could see her. . The bute seemed to help her out but I did not want to continue after giving 1 gram more than  one time as I did not want to cover up any symptoms at her appointment.  To be honest I thought she had an abscess and I was wrapping her foot with a poultice pad which has worked well for me in the past. When I went to the vet appointment Wednesday they could see she was in a lot of pain and could barely move (which I had explained when I requested the appointment).  Ex rays showed rotation of both front feet with left being the worse (but not through the sole).  She is standing square but having difficulty walking.  Vet suggested it was not a good idea to have a mare in foal with founder and sent me home as he had and emergency C section for another client.

I had a ton of questions and Kim who is in this group made a post on my behalf and Dr Kellon recommended an ultra sound to determine if still a viable foal.  We had the ultra sound today and the determination was made the foal is no longer viable. They could feel the foal but no heartbeat.  They went in 4 different times to be sure. She was given a shot of lutalyce to help abort the foal.  They are coming up with a plan for next week to support her needs regarding the loss of the foal and making sure she is clean and open (may involve more ultra sounds, more lutalyce, lavage and oxytosis). Next week blood will be pulled from Chicy here at the barn to sent via vet for a metabolic panel to Cornell to check for IR and Cushings. She has not been drinking water as usual and was getting dehydrated and the vet gave her 5 liters fluids IV today which seemed to help her out.  She is eating and pooping good.  Not peeing but maybe due to not drinking.  I noticed today she seemed to have drank several gallons this afternoon so hope that is behind us.

With Kim's yesterday assistance I now have switched her fescue hay and Triple Crown Lite to orchard grass soaked and Triple Crown Natural Timothy cubes along with some vitamins and minerals. We have also backed up her toes and put 3 layers of Styrofoam pads on the front feet.  She is confined to the barn with deep shavings. My farrier will be here in the next couple of days to back up her toes a little more and change out the bottom 2 pads.  I will take measurments at that time and order some therapy boots.

So that is it.  The last 2 days have been a crash course in how to take care of a foundered mare.  We are beyond sad to lose the baby and would like more answers on why the baby did not survive and if that could have caused the founder.  I am sure I will have a ton more of questions as time goes on.  At this moment we are in shell shock.  Just want my girl to recover and be pain free.  I can say since having the Styrofoam pads and toes backed up she seems more comfortable on her feet but her body is very sore all over and she seems a little stiff.  Once I get her moving she seems to improve a bit. She did stand in one place in her stall most of yesterday, last night and this morning before going to the vet.  This afternoon she is munching hay in a different area of the barn which tells me she her feet do not hurt as much.. 

I do not have email on my phone where my pictures are.  Is there a way i can post directly with out email?  And a way to post pictures without using email?  All the photos and files I find seem to be for possible admin documentation.  Would like to show ex rays of feet and a picture of my beautiful amazing girl.

Thank you for listening and hoping for some good information to help us move forward and put this behind us.  
--
Janet
Chester SC
09/17/2021


Sherry Morse
 




Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Janet,

One thing I would suggest is taking her temperature  twice a day.  Did she abort the fetus yet?


Qhgirl
 

Thank you Dr Kellon. That is a mystery. The vet ultra sounded her yesterday and said they could feel the fetus but could not see it on ultra sound. I spoke with a breeder friend of mine today and she told me it sounds like possibly they feel the placenta since not sign of fetus or heartbeat on ultra sound. They think the foal may have been aborted a couple of weeks ago when I noticed her slowing down and acting different. 

my breeder friend asked me if they did blood work, culture or lavage before breeding which they did not.  I rely on  et to tell me as I do not know protocol  My friend suspects possible her progesterone levels may have been too high to breed that could result in this situation  

I have appointment Tuesday for another ultra sound, lavage  culture and oxytosis injection  

I took her temp this morning and 99.6.  Took this evening and 101.5

i started looking in my pasture for sign of fetus but doubt I will find anything  I have 3 more acres to inspect tomorrow.  She is confined to barn so if anything passes I will know. 

Any and all help is welcome.  Chicy is so stiff she can barely move. My concern is if placenta caused founder and us still in her will she continue to get worse?

--
Janet
Chester SC
09/17/2021


Qhgirl
 

Dr Kellon.  My vet was supposed to give me a copy of the ultra sound but we're too busy. Hope to get it Monday
--
Janet
Chester SC
09/17/2021


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Your concern is warranted.  A retained placenta most definitely could do this. Those temps are OK but keep taking them. Is there any vaginal drainage? Hopefully they will make sure she is cleaned out on Tuesday.  Any chance your breeder friend's vets could see her before then?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'd also like to mention for those of you in areas where it's hard to get an equine vet, you could check for bovine vets especially if you have a serious situation like this.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Frances C
 

Janet, while looking for signs in the pasture, keep an eye open for birds ,especially crows gathering around an area. They may be on to something.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Qhgirl
 

Hi Dr Kellon -
There has been no drainage or discharge I have seen. I know that vet snd spoke to her on the phone. They are in GA and 2.5 hours away from me. I doubt I can get Chicy on the trailer and if I could that trip would be really hard on her. She told me a foundered mare is not in her line of work. If one of the mares she bred foundered the mare would go to her regular vet and she would be a consulting vet. 

In my case my regular vet bred Chicy. They just do not seem to have experience in this situation. I am hoping they will come here to do the ultra sound and lavage Tuesday. The only other option is for me to load her up with pain killers to get her to them which I do not want to do. I will ask them tomorrow if they can do the ultrasound and lavage tomorrow in case she has a retained placenta.  With them saying they could feel the foal but not get it on ultrasound if begs so many needed answers.

I could not find anything in the pasture this morning. But no horse has been in a week. Even the poop I found was all dried up. No sign of birds. If anything was there it is gone now. 

 temp this am was 99.9.  Farrier coming this
afternoon to take toes back more and will measures her for soft rides or clouds. 

Really hoping to get more answers Monday or Tuesday. I do not like waiting around. Thank you for your support. Chicy still very stiff and not moving. Did not leave her stall even for water so she now has a water bucket in 3 areas and hay in 2 areas. She is eating good snd drank a couple of gallons of water today.  She asked to go into the dry lot but because there is a very little grass in it I did not let her. Maybe after farrier leaves I can see if she wants out of barn and hand walk her. She lives in a large dry lot with access to barn at all times so staying inside is not her idea of fun.  I have the stall door open with a guard and she stuck her head out and seemed to enjoy the fresh air. 
--
Janet
Chester SC
09/17/2021


Qhgirl
 

Oh!  My vet is also a bovine vet. My neighed had a cow with a still born who retained the placenta and had to have 3 oxytosis injections to expel. 

Won't these injections increase her possibility to founder even worse. That med puts them in labor. Seems like that would be really hard on Chicy.
--
Janet
Chester SC
09/17/2021


Sherry Morse
 

A 2- 3 month old fetus is maybe 3 - 4oz at most so trying to find a trace at this point is going to be difficult, unfortunately.




Qhgirl
 

A lot has happened since my last post on Friday night.  My farrier came out and moved Chicy's toes back a little more.  I was able to find a somewhat local vet that came to my farm and ultra sounded Chicy.  He could not see the foal but said it is resting on her bladder.  He could see the unbiblical cord, the embryonic fluid and placenta.  He could not see the fetus so was unable to determine if the fetus is viable.  He will come back in 10 days hoping the fetus will reposition and he can see it. He said if the fetus is not alive she will expel it and not to worry about the placenta since she is 80 days and the placenta is very small.

He accessed Chicy's feet and said her heels are way too far forward which is causing stress on her flexor tendon that supports the coffin bone.  Indicated long toes and forward heels would be a contributing factor to set her up to founder. He said she needs a wedge and frog support.  He made a small frog support that will act as a wedge and indicated this should give her some relief in her deep flexor tendon and also take the pressure off her sole in front of the frog where her coffin bone is pushing down on her thin sole. 

He recommended due to her pain she be on bute 1 gram 2 x day for a few days until she gets into her therapy boots with a wedge and frog support.  I ordered the Cloud boots today and a thin frog support pad that can go inside the boot on top of the small wedge that comes with it.  We are hopping this will provide some relief and can get her moving around instead of standing and laying in a stall all day.   

He recommended holding off on the metabolic panel for a couple of weeks until she has less pain.  He is on board with her new ECIR diet.  My farrier will be calling him for detailed instructions until I can get up to speed in this group on trims and such and get him some information (he does not want to join the group but is interested in reading the hoof treatment methodology).  So much going an and I work a full time job as well as take care of my farm so I myself have not had much time to dive into the group documentation at this point.  

This has been a total merry-go-around for me.  I have a lot of confidence in this vet and it is wonderful to have someone so knowledgeable come to Chicy to save her so much stress and pain from a trailer ride. I still do not have the answers I was seeking but feel I am now on track to get them.  The vet said we have time to make decisions about the foal if it is still alive which he thinks is a strong possibility.  He also said once we get her in the boots and pain under control he feels she could carry and take care of the foal.  So here we go again.  By the way, Dr Kellon, this vet is a bovine, pig, sheep and horse vet.  He hold clinics at his farm on AI and raises all the same animals on his farm and teaches husbandry and holds an open house annually. His farm is a working farm. I feel like Chicy is fortunate to have him and he makes emergency calls as well.  What more could a horsey girl ask for?  lol. Thank you, Dr Kellon, for suggesting a bovine vet which jogged my memory about this particular vet.  When I called him today with my situation he was very responsive and arrived here in a couple of hours.  
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021


Sherry Morse
 

Janet,

Getting a full set of hoof pictures and any x-rays of her feet posted (directions here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help) will help us better help you.  Once you have the photos posted if you send a note with the topic "hoof trim help needed" it will alert us that you have those up and need some help with determining steps forward.

If there's any chance the fetus is still alive do keep Chicy off any fescue going forward.




Qhgirl
 

I have done my best to figure out how to create a case history and photo album. I am sure he needs some work. The pictures are not perfect. Will try for better ones. She stepped out of stall and I had the opportunity to take them. The one strip of tape is on each front to hold the small frog support and heel wedge in place the vet put on her yesterday. My new vet has his own ideas. My farrier is not cooperating with me and ignores my requests. This is going yo be a struggle to get them on board. I am in my 70s with stage 3 osteoporosis and osteoarthritis so my back can only handle so much bending over. This is going to be interesting. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/1%20Case%20History%20Form%20and%20Instructions/Janet%20and%20Chicy/Chicy%20Case%20History.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/new_member_my_mare_chicy/85689752?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,0,85689752,previd=1632260036147920522,nextid=1632184774222308083&previd=1632260036147920522&nextid=1632184774222308083


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Janet,

Thanks for adding the rads and some pictures. Here is the link to Chicy's photo album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334

I've changed that on your signature so it will go to the right place in future posts.

Know that you aren't alone in trying to get your vet and farrier on the same page - may members here can really relate to those issues.

Your vet is correct that her toes are too far out in front of her and that her heels are severely underrun and that this is both causing issues on its own plus likely contributed to her feet really taking a hit when she got laminitis. Good that your farrier moved her toes back a bit - but there is still a long way to go.

When the radiographs were taken, was Chicy standing squarely on her feet or was each foot pulled forward and placed on a block? Can't tell as the rads were shot from too close to the feet, which cut off parts of the foot, as well as parts of P1. That makes it a bit harder to interpret what is going on. I wouldn't recommend adding an additional frog support pad on top of the wedged Cloud pads as it looks like there is some slight bony column rotation on those rads. If that is the case, adding wedges will make that bony column rotation worse. There is definitely slight capsular rotation, which is when the hoof capsule pulls away from it's tight attachment to the coffin bone.

She needs to have those toes pulled back even more, which will have the secondary effect of helping her HPA become better aligned. Moving her heels back under her is the goal, but it will be tricky to accomplish as there is NO excess vertical depth to work with at this time so they need to be encouraged to stand up, without losing what little height they have.

Lying down and resting is a good thing, as it keeps her weight off her damaged and fragile feet. Masking pain in order to get her up and about is counter-productive: if you had broken both your feet, would your doctor be wanting you to spend a lot of time standing and moving around on them? Not likely as you'd just be causing more damage.

If you can get more photos, I can do a set of mark-ups for you to help guide her trims.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'm also having trouble deciding if there is any true rotation since it looks like there is overflexion, especially on the right.  Definitely poor sole depth/ground clearance, long toes, underrun heels.  The need for temporary wedging should be determined by the palmar angle, which is normal on the left and at least a couple degrees positive on the right. I would suggest you order boots to fit where her toe should be, not where it is, then cut out the toe to let the excess protrude until you get it off - like an open-toed sandal.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Janet,

Your CH folder is now in the main files where it should be: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy and I fixed that link in your signature. 

I'll let Lavinia comment more on the x-rays but I see long toes and possibly a bit of a ski tip on both coffin bones which says to me that the trim issues have been ongoing for quite a while.




Qhgirl
 

Thank you for fixing the files. Will I need a way to update them to that address?  Or can I update on line?
Thanks
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Qhgirl
 

The vet only put 1 foot on a block to take the ex ray. I asked about that and he said that is how he always does it. 

The vet told me her heels are so far forward she has all the weight on the sole just in front of the frog where the coffin bone is pressing on her sole. He also said she is so low on the back of her heel that the deep flexor tendon is being stressed. I have seen many with tears in the deep flexor tendon and they are difficult to recover from. That is why he made a V shaped pad. To get the weight more on her frog and ease the tension on the deep flexor tendon. Just wanted to explain that. Maybe you can comment on his logic. 

She has considerable more pain on her left front.

i can try to back up her toe a little more rather that get farrier back. He did things his normal way from the bottom using nippers snd wraps on hoof and wrapping periople. How much can I take off and how fast. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Qhgirl
 

She lays down a lot. Stands in deep shaving in stall. Boots are coming today. I am going to roll toe before putting them on if the fit. I want them on her hoping for comfort. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334