New member My Mare Chicy in foal Dr Kellon Levenia


Qhgirl
 

I am tagging you in subject as I do not want to keep replying and possibly you not seeing. I have an idea to run by you. 

Since it is hard for me to get boots on and off alone and the cloud rub her heels am wondering if this would be something to try. 

Tape the wedge pads from the clouds to her feet. Cut back the toe on wedge pad so I can easily get to her toes with rasp. Then work on her toes just a little each day until I get behind the white line. She if off bute but very painful even in boots. Biting at heels due to rubbing. She is laying down a lot. Stall bedded with 10 bags of shaving. I tried to pick up foot this am yo remove boot but she wants both feet on ground when standing so will be a challenge. 

Next, do I do 10-2 rasping on toes only?  Will this leave a squared off toe with areas beyond 10 and 2?  Will she bleed in 10-2 area?  Will it make her more painful into or past white line?  Will this open up the hoof in some way?  I just do not know how much I can take off without exposing area that has no protection snd could result in infections, etc. 

Has anyone in my area had a farrier that knows how to do this safely I could call to come and do this for me the first time?

I do not want to somehow interfere with the integrity of the hoof. 

Dr Kellon- When you suggested a boot with less toe was the idea I could rasp her toe while the boot it on?

I know Levenia indicated it may be tricky to move her heels back and if I understood it is due to flat sole with no concavity and thin sole?  So what are the chances backing up toe past white line will succeed in moving heel back?  If heel does not move back then will any progress have been made?  How much can come off toe without more pictures. It is just me in country. Very hard to get her out of stall. So need yo take pictures with no boots in stall with 10 bags of shavings and just me has presented problems getting anything better than the ones I posted. But I will keep trying and learning. I want my girl well and her to be able to carry and look after her baby. Could this be the equivalent of gestational diabetes in humans. It comes when pregnant and when baby born it goes away?

--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Janet,

You can definitely just tape the pads to her feet and leave the boot off, then work on filing the toes back yourself.  You can probably file with her foot on the pad in the shavings so she doesn't have to hold it up for you.  She will not bleed unless you are within a few mm of the bone, which is surrounded by sensitive corium tissue, and if you look at her xrays you can see that filing that much toe off is pretty much impossible.  If you file into any abscess pockets it's possible some blood or fluid could come out, but there are no blood vessels or nerves except those few mm around the bones.  I would file so that her toe is rounded like a hoof should be, not just from 10-2.  Do a search in the messages for "markups" to look at what Lavinia has advised others to do, or ask her if she can do markups specifically for Chicy using the xray images.

The underrun heels are due to the long toes.  Lavinia can provide advice on how to work on getting the underrun heels to stand up, but they won't improve until the toe is shorter.

Mares do develop elevated insulin when pregnant but I believe it occurs later in the pregnancy.  That's why we were concerned about a possible retained placenta since Chicy is only 3 Mo in, which is early for the usual pregnancy - related laminitis.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Qhgirl
 

Thank you Kristen
My friend Kim in this group came over (she lives in the next county so not a real short drive) and she shorten Chicy's toes to the white line.  Then my farrier came and shortened toes even more but he also rasped the periople above the toe to remove any change of direction if it still existed. The ex rays were taken before both trims. So if the 1" estimate is based upon the ex rays the lateral pictures I took yesterday would be her actual foot now. So I am wondering if the ex rays would be a 100% accurate guide. I do not see any dishes or change of direction in her New lateral pictures but again the farrier rasped any if they existed even though I strongly requested he not rasp the periople. What I do see is more toe possibly on the top part of the toe in both front feet. So thinking instead of going under her foot I should rasp off the top of the toe and the round it up to avoid going into or past the white line. Am I making sense or am I off base here. The white line to me is the area where I see a definite distinction between the hoof wall and the sole. 

please correct me if I am misinterpreting anything. I do know once something needed is taken away I cannot put it back so need to be sure I do not take too much. 

I have a friend coming tomorrow early am before she leaves for work to help me. I want to be confident I am doing what needs to be done and not too much. 


Thank you so much. My girl is laying down a lot. I have pads taped on her feet. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

My suggestion would be for you to look at the angle of growth at the top of her hoof near the coronet (I do see a change in the angle on her LF lateral, but I don't see much change on the RF lateral) and draw an imaginary line down to where that new growth would intersect the ground.  Then shorten the toes to where that line would be at the ground (do not rasp the hoof wall higher up, just the toe near the ground).  That will shorten her toes.  It's not quite enough but it will be an improvement and there's no danger of going too far if you don't go past that imaginary line.  It's ok to go in the the whiteline at the toe.  It will be necessary to make any significant changes.  You can draw on the hoof with a black marker if that helps.

I strongly advise asking Lavinia for markups because Chicy's heels are so underrun.  It is not easy or simple to fix that.  Here is a good example of a horse with long toes and underrun heels (esp the hinds) and the markups that were done for him:
Feb 19 2020 photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?p=pcreated%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C820%2C0&jump=1&id=243358
And here are Lavinia's notes for that first trim:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/248330
If you follow the photo history, you'll see how his hooves improved but it took time and diligent trimming.


--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Jennifer Green
 

Trying to learn what I can from other posts. The long toes seem to be a common reoccurring theme here. Out of curiosity, are the toes long and the angle of the hoof shallow because of the laminitis? If you are able to keep the angle closer to what seems to be about 45 degrees, are you able to prevent the severity of the laminitis?  
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jennifer,

The horizontally long toes at ground level are a common problem in all horses, not just laminitic ones. It generally goes hand-in-hand with heels that are underrun to some degree. Continual over-trimming of the soles, bars and frogs adds to the mechanical insult and instability. These are trimming issues that weaken the overall integrity of the hoof capsule so if laminitis hits, more severe damage tends to occur. If the hoof capsule fits the bones inside correctly, it will help lessen the severity of any "attacks" to the lamina. Even with the best trims, if there are repeated attacks, there will be increasing, cumulative damage so just getting the trim right doesn't prevent the possibility of serious consequences.

The best practice is to keep the hoof capsule tightly aligned to the bones within.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR