New member need guidance.


Peggy Frontera
 

 Hello everyone

I just joined the group and uploaded my case history. Looking for advice going forward.Already contacted Kathleen Gustason to balance my hay.Looking to simplify my routine.
My horse Taktur is a 16 year old gelding that was diagnosed with PPID in September of 2021 while he was having a second bout of questionable laminitis versus an abscess in his right front hoof that they felt could have been mechanically induced by a trim by the farrier two days earlier. Initial X-rays showed minimal rotation but no previous X-rays to compare it to. X-rays did not show any abscess but it was determined he was having a second bout of laminitis.
He is due to have follow up bloodwork. What bloodwork should I request and when should it be done? Should it be fasting? Has not been on grass since original diagnosis. Only hay that was analyzed and ok for him to have. Going forward  I am in the Northeast United states (Catskills). I need to know if he can go out with a grazing muzzle if we have had a frost less than 24 degrees for three consecutive days . The horses in the Icelandic herd go out to a field from 5Pm to 7:30 am as of Sept 15th. Once we have frigid temperatures and snow would it be ok for him to go out at those times without a muzzle? At present he is still on hay only Stabul 1 and supplements, prascend and Thyro-L.

Thank You ,
Peggy



--
Peggy Frontera
Delhi, New York 
Joined 9/14/2022

Taktur's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Peggy%20and%20Taktur/Taktur%20PDF%20Case%20History.pdf
Taktur's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=278922


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Peggy,

You'll get a full welcome message shortly but looking at the picture of Taktur there's a bit too much of him to love.  I'm also mystified by your weights for him.  At 13.2 hands I'd expect him to be about 700 - 725lbs for a normal weight but you have him listed as 'normal' at a range of 724 (current) to 810 (last year) and thin at 704 which is probably closer to a 4.5-5 BCS and where we want to see an IR horse. 

For an IR horse even 20lbs can make a big difference in how they feel so if he's truly 724 now his actual idea is probably closer to the 704 when you thought he was thin.  Do you have any pictures of him when he was that weight?

Are you actually weighing the amount of hay you're feeding or are those estimates?  We recommend no more than 2% of ideal weight to be fed to any horse which would make your 18 - 20lbs a day way more than Taktur needs.   

We do not recommend pasture for any IR horse and that includes after frost.  If there's several feet of snow over the grass then he would possibly be safe for him to be out but you'd still need to make sure he's not getting any grass.




Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Peggy
Not sure if you saw your welcome message from Bobbie here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/283722

There is information in the Diagnosis section of that letter which explains the blood testing protocol. You’d want to retest ACTH, insulin and glucose.  As Sherry said, we don't recommend any IR horse having grass unless their insulin is controlled and they are working  hard. And even then, it should be controlled/limited grazing, a half hour to an hour maybe--not all night. Taktur's insulin has come down nicely with your current regime compared to when he was first tested last year, so you probably need to ask yourself whether it is worth risking laminitis again by allowing grazing. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Peggy Frontera
 

Thank You Sherry for responding. Having a little difficulty navigating the site to figure out how to respond to you and the group so hopefully you and the group are getting this message.
We are coming into winter fall season in the Catskills and everyone that has Icelandics thinks they should have a little weight on to help them stay warm as they are all pasture boarded. Taktur stays out all day this time of the year because he can stay in a dry paddock all day getting his hay in a separate area from the other horses in the morning. When the herd goes out at 5pm he stays in the dry paddock getting his hay through slow feeder bags for the night. 
I weigh all of his hay he is given but on your advice I decreased it to 17 pounds yesterday and will titrate it to 14 pounds in the next two days. Is that amount ok? The only other nourishment he is getting is his supplements twice a day mixed in with 1 1/2 cups of Stabul 1.
I am weighing him once a week using the same tape because I do not have access to an  animal scale. I do not have any pictures when he was at his thinest and he also had a lot of his winter coat in at that time so he looked heavier than he really was as you could still see his ribs even with his heavy coat. 
My vet that just saw him thought it would be ok after a frost and snow for him to go out and forage for grass through the snow but I am taking your advice and will not be letting out on pasture at all. 
Do you think if I put a grazing muzzle on him with the opening covered and me watching him would be ok so he could at least go out with the herd once in awhile? I only ask this because so many people have said to me that I need to let him be a horse sometimes just for his head. I of course do not want him sick again as it was a very hard year for me and him but I also want to only do what's best for him.
--
Peggy Frontera
Delhi, New York 
Joined 9/14/2022

Taktur's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Peggy%20and%20Taktur/
Taktur's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=278922


Peggy Frontera
 

Thanks Maxine.
I got the welcome letter and will follow the blood testing protocol. He is getting his blood tested again on October 20Th. He has been on Prascend 0.5 mg for over a year now with normal ACTH levels in winter, spring and early summer. Vet said she would test again in winter (December or January)as many horses, especially Icelandics have been noted to be  elevated late August through November that are not Cushings. What is your opinion?
--
Peggy Frontera
Delhi, New York 
Joined 9/14/2022

Taktur's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Peggy%20and%20Taktur/
Taktur's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=278922


Sherry Morse
 

All horses have an elevated ACTH during the fall as this is the period of the seasonal rise.  Testing during the rise will tell you if your current dose is adequate for control at that time.  We want to see a horse with a positive PPID result testing in the upper teens to low 20s year round.




Sherry Morse
 

Hi Peggy,

"Everybody" seems to think horses need weight to stay warm when what they need is an adequate supply of calories on a daily basis, not being kept in a state that will cause issues.  Again, you want to feed to the 2% of ideal weight per day including hay and concentrates.  If that's enough to maintain weight you can tweak that amount up and if it's too much you can tweak it down.  

Horses can be out for 4 - 6 hours with a completely closed muzzle.  If you're willing to bring him in every day after that time frame you could put him out on a daily basis.  As for the "so many people" who want him to be a horse, you might ask them if they are willing to put in the work and money when he gets laminitis from being out on grass and being overweight.  If they're not then they can perhaps keep their opinions to themselves and let you manage him in the way that will allow him to live a long healthy life.




Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I'm sure in a herd of Icelandics, Taktur is not the only one facing metabolic issues.  Maybe there is at least 1 other horse that could be kept in the dry paddock with him if their owner also has concerns about pasture.

The problem with winter-'killed' grass is that it's not really dead.  If it was, it wouldn't come back in the spring.  The roots are alive and they store a lot of the sugars.  In my limited experience, horses love digging up this tasty treat. 

Extra weight on going in to winter is only helpful if the horse struggles to get enough calories in the winter.  Most responsible horse owners make sure they have more than enough to eat, so that extra weight never gets burned off and they are still overweight in the spring.  It's better to maintain a healthy condition year-round, and in a horse with EMS that means a BCS of 4.5-5 / 9.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album