NEW Mule and owner need support please


Marlene Quiring
 

Vets here are not easily assessable and I am concerned about how to help my mule or even understand the IR lab work. She is on the low sugar hay for winter. Any advice please.
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Marlene Quiring from Central Alberta, joined 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marlene%20and%20Shadow
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271458


Cindy Q
 

Hello Marlene

Welcome to the group!
1) For IR lab work, the recommendation here is to do both insulin and glucose and enter it into the IR calculator. That's how you get the G:I, RISQI and MIRG to fill into the CH (where it says IR Calculator Results as the heading) and  I saw only insulin in your case history and it's elevated above the reference range. 
2) With elevated insulin - I would say put on the Emergency Diet first. Your CH indicates your mule is overweight, but out on pasture with free choice hay. You can read more about our diet recommendations below. https://www.ecirhorse.com/DDT+E-diet.php (also linked below in the DIET section) - scroll to the bottom of the page where it says What is the Emergency Diet? This includes giving your mule a weighed amount of hay and taking her off pasture. It includes giving iodized table salt, a small amount of ground flaxseed (or an even smaller amount flaxseed oil), vitamin E.
3) Your hay test says "basic NIR package" and NIR testing is not as accurate as the wet chemical method. This often shows less accurate results and can deviate by roughly 30% higher or lower numbers. In the DIET section below, you will also see that the starch level is important (below 4%) and the total of ESC and starch (10% and below) as well. If testing your hay, the 603 Trainer test at Equi-Analytical provides everything you need and uses wet chemistry. I saw that one of our volunteers is in Canada and uses this recommended lab as well. 
4) I would stop ARK minerals for now. Not familiar with it but feeding loose minerals anyway is not recommended here. Too much variation and we do not find equines to self-regulate appropriately on this.

There's a lot of information below in our welcome letter that follows. Good job getting your photo album up, you can also upload hoof pictures for trim advice from Lavinia (see the last part of the TRIM section below for information on how to go about that and it also leads to a link on how to take good hoof pictures). Let us know if you have any questions.
 
The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Cindy and Glow (over the rainbow bridge) - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marlene,

Great job getting your hay test and bloodwork posted.  As Cindy already mentioned NIR isn't the best option for hay testing and with an ESC+starch of 8.9% I would be soaking that hay until you can run a wet chem test and see what the actual numbers are.  You can run a carb pack from Equi-Analytical for just those numbers - more info here: https://equi-analytical.com/feed-and-forage-analysis/analytical-service-packages/

Shadow's bloodwork has confirmed she is IR.  I see you have her on Insulinwise which many of our members have tried but few have found to have a positive response on insulin levels.  Your best defense now that you have a diagnosis is getting her diet as tightly controlled as possible and getting the extra weight she's carrying off of her.  The picture with the saddle makes it hard to guess but if you think she needs to lose weight you need to be feeding her at 1.5% of her current weight or 2% of her ideal weight - whichever is greater.  That amount includes all hay and concentrates she eats.  So no more free choice hay - it needs to be weighed out each day for her. We also do not recommend pasture which probably isn't an issue if you have a lot of snow on the ground right now.

It sounds like Shadow may have had some laminitic issues prior to her official diagnosis - if you have any x-rays of her feet would you be able to post them?  Does she still have swelling in her knee at this time?




Jennifer Murphy
 

Hi Marlene, fellow mule owner here!  One of the best sayings I've ever read comes from Steve Edwards, the mule trainer, which is " Mules can't stand prosperity".  I've heard Meredith Hodges say essentially the same thing.  I've always been advised to keep protein levels below 10% for mules and donkeys, and I see your hay tested over 13%.  It doesn't seem like much, but my hay normally tests between 7 - 8 % and the one time I fed 12% my IR mule's insulin shot right up.  I can't say for certain that was the culprit, but here is the link to the post I made at the time: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/266881


--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Marlene,

Your IR bloodwork shows your mule is in the danger zone for laminitis, if she is not already actively laminitic now.  Even without the glucose number this is apparent.  When you account for the different units in your 2 test reports, insulin may have come down slightly since August, although since different labs use different assays numbers from different labs cannot be compared directly, but regardless both tests show that insulin is was and remains much too high.  More extreme dietary measures need to be taken to lower that insulin.  This includes soaking the hay and/or looking for lower sugar hay.  Also, making sure she is not digging up any frozen grass and eating the sugar-loaded roots.

What were the temperatures when blood was pulled for insulin?  Temps below 10C can, in some cases, cause very large jumps in insulin.  Since you can't control the weather, diet and exercise are critical in cold temps.   I know it's the worst time to soak hay but it's when hay most needs to be soaked.  Ridden exercise should only be done though if the equine has had 6-9 months to grow a healthy hoof after laminitis, although driving work and hand-walking can start earlier if the equine is comfortable.

While Insulin-Wise does work for some horses, it's effect is so small (the original study showed minimal drops in insulin in 2/3 of the horses) and it's cost is so high that I don't think it's worth it.  You'll get much more dramatic results by soaking hay.

You can request the 603 Trainer hay test from Nutrilytical in Calgary.  They do some initial processing then ship batches of samples to Equi-Analytical in New York.  They will also loan you a hay probe for sampling for the cost of shipping it to you.  The Amino Trace+ is an excellent supplement and works well forall the hays I've tested.  But without getting the hay tested for all the minerals listed in the 603 Trainer package, you won't know for sure if it is appropriate for your hay.  I've also found through hay testing that with some hays I can feed 1 scoop (100g) a day instead of 2 scoops and still meet my horse's needs, which saves a bit of money.  I don't know what the ARK minerals are but if they have added iron or sweetener they could be doing more harm than good.

I agree with Jennifer that the high protein in your hay could be a problem, too.  We don't really know why but some equines can't tolerate it.

Shadow looks like a lovely mule and I hope we can help you help her feel better.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


larkstabatha
 

Welcome to you and your Mule Marlene.  Check out the new Folder in the "Files" section with the heading Donkeys.  The scientific study recently posted there contains helpful diagnostic information for both Donkey and Mule owners.  

My best to you, Sally

Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 


Marlene Quiring
 

Thank you Sally, but I am unable to find this file you referred to?

Regards,
Marlene Quiring
 
Cell - 403 783-1723
Home - 403 783-5210
Box 29, Site 5, RR 2, Ponoka, AB. T4J 1R2


--
Marlene Quiring from Central Alberta, joined 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marlene%20and%20Shadow
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271458


Sherry Morse
 

There is currently nothing posted in the folder, but it would be here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Donkey%20Information



Marlene Quiring
 

Thank you Jennifer,

Maybe I have the wrong hay analysis uploaded but my hay tested at 9.4 % but maybe that is still too high for Shadow. I'm finding it hard to know here how to respond etc. so hope all bear with me!! it's winter here of course, cold and impossible to do alot outside with soaking hay etc. 

Regards,
Marlene Quiring
 
Cell - 403 783-1723
Home - 403 783-5210
Box 29, Site 5, RR 2, Ponoka, AB. T4J 1R2


--
Marlene Quiring from Central Alberta, joined 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marlene%20and%20Shadow
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271458


Marlene Quiring
 

Well, I see I'm having trouble finding the replies to my pleas for help.... Being new to this group, it's hard navigating around! My vets here were only concerned about the sugar in our hay. We had 2 cuts and the first cut was lowest in sugar but I see now that the protein is higher so I guess that is not good either, but right now I do not have an option except feed her the first cut or the 2nd. Which is  the lesser evil? The 2nd cut hay is ESC Sugar 15.5 and WSC Sugar 18.6. and 9.4 crude protein. While the 1st cut and what she's getting now is ESC Sugar 5.5, WSC Sugar 7.6 and Crude protein 13.7. 

My vets here say do not lock her up separate as that will create stress for her which is not good either. She is in a herd of 5 mules in a large pasture. It's a Canadian Prairie winter here and we are unable to make a separate pasture or area for her without her being in a constant state of stress. What again is the lesser evil? I MUST ADMIT I AM Overwhelmed at what to do. She's moving ok now, not lamatic. 

I will be getting her tested for Cushings. That was supposed to have been done on her last bloodwork drawn, but was missed.

I can't remove the minerals from her without removing them from the whole herd. I feel helpless at every turn. Trying to figure out how to manage this is really hard. Thanks for all the help and hopefully I can figure this out and come up with something for her and I that is workable and I will continue reading on the website and trying to catch the messages. I HAVE hope anyways!! Thanks to all who have offered help and comments!!

Regards,
Marlene Quiring
 
Cell - 403 783-1723
Home - 403 783-5210
Box 29, Site 5, RR 2, Ponoka, AB. T4J 1R2


--
Marlene Quiring from Central Alberta, joined 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marlene%20and%20Shadow
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271458


Jennifer Murphy
 

Marlene,

It can be overwhelming and the best advice you can get right now is to breathe...you're doing your best!  I can't answer your hay question, but I'm sure someone here with more knowledge can.  

I think you're on the right path by getting her ACTH checked.  Once that comes back, you'll know what you're dealing with.  Since you are going to have the bloodwork done for that, if I were you I'd get her insulin tested again, too.  You can't ever have too much knowledge of what's going on.  

If she becomes laminitic again, do you have a plan for keeping her quiet so she can recover?  Maybe you can borrow corral panels and set up a small area with a run in shed that she and an easygoing friend from the herd can use just in case?  That way she'd have at least one pal to keep her from being too stressed, but she wouldn't get pushed around if she shouldn't be moving much.

--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Marlene,

From your last message above I can see you're getting there and although its frustrating at first, this site will get easier to navigate with practice...

I definitely would not feed a hay with 15.5% ESC to an equine with such high insulin already.  Keep in mind that the starch number is also critical.  ESC + starch together should be <10%, and starch should be <4%.  These are upper limits and may not be safe for all insulin-resistant equines.  Can you find a lower protein hay and mix them 50:50?

Everyone here has different physical and financial conditions they have to work with but in general--even if you can't do it today--thinking about how you can modify your mule housing and feeding setup and working towards implementing dietary controls will benefit her in the long run.  Its great that she doesn't seem to be in pain right now, which reduces the urgency of her situation.  But keep in mind that her December insulin was high enough that she could become acutely laminitic very easily and you might want to already be setup to separate her.  Jennifer's suggestion to set up temporary round pen/coral panels (or use electric fencing with a solar charger) to isolate your IR girl and one of her good friends is a great one.  It is possible, just not fun, to soak hay in winter if you have a water source; even better if you can soak 24 hrs worth of hay at once and store the extra in a cool but not freezing room until its time to feed it.  The hay might freeze during feeding but horses do not have any problems eating frozen hay.  If temps are really cold (-15C'ish and lower) then I would feed soaked hay loose in a tub rather than in a hay net because after a few hours a hay net can freeze all the way through.

At 6 years old, PPID is VERY rare but not impossible so you could have her baseline ACTH tested for that.

Regarding the ARK minerals, if they are not balanced to your hay they may not be doing much good anyways, especially as the added iron in ARK is offsetting any good the added zinc and copper would do because iron will block the absorption of these minerals.  Consider having your hay retested for major and trace minerals, then choosing a mineral supplement that will meet the deficiencies and not aggravate any imbalances that might already be in the hay, especially with iron and manganese.  We have a list of people that have been trained by Dr Kellon to balance hay according to the NRC guidelines for horses.  Or use a supplement that doesn't have added iron, like Mad Barn Amino Trace+.  https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2022/01/09/beware-supplemental-iron/

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marlene,

One of the things to remember about your hay testing is that if those results are NIR they can be off by up to 30% of what wet chem numbers would be so we really don't know what the actual ESC or starch number is.  We don't care about WSC so for the test you have posted in your photo album the ESC+starch is 5.5+3.4 (8.9%) but it could likely to be over the 10% cutoff if you retested that hay using wet chem.  That's why we recommend soaking it as you don't know what you're actually dealing with.  If your second cut hay test was also done NIR and the ESC alone was 15.5% that hay is totally unsuitable for an IR equine.

If you have a good snow cover and there's no grass access she may well be fine out with the herd, but thinking ahead to when you do have grass again you are probably going to have to make adjustments.  That could range from keeping her in a dry lot area with a measured amount of hay or possibly allowing limited turnout with the herd with an completely closed muzzle so she can't eat any grass (the limited turnout there is that she'll need to have the muzzle off to actually eat anything so won't be able to be out 24/7).  If she's in regular steady work and on a tightly controlled diet that's the best thing you can do for her and it may allow her a little more leeway with turnout, but that's a ways down the road yet.

In the long run getting your hay balanced using either a custom mix or knowing which commercial mix will best balance the hay will probably end up costing you less although it can be overwhelming to think about right now.




larkstabatha
 

Hi Marlene... I am very sorry to add to your confusion, I thought this link from Wiley's Online LIbrary had already been placed in the new Donkey folder in the Files, which is coming from Dr. Kellon's Message #272385.  I will email Nancy C to request that it be added if she does not catch this here. I am thinking the name of the new Donkey folder ought to be revised to be Donkeys and Mule Information if Nancy agrees...

I am also working on a draft of another bit of information to be included in this Files folder to talk about hyperlipidemia in Donkeys that is of special concern when first introducing them to Pergolide/Prascend.  Can anyone more familiar with Mules tell me if Mules are also more susceptible to this condition when compared to horses? 

DiagnosticValuesForDonkeysAndMules

My best, Sally
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 


Marlene Quiring
 

Thank You as I never did find the folder you were trying to guide me to. Guess I'm not losing my mind yet! LOL. I have worked with and raised mules much of my life. I can't say I've ever heard of a mule with hyperlipidemia, only donkeys. So for what that's worth!

Regards,
Marlene Quiring
 
Cell - 403 783-1723
Home - 403 783-5210
Box 29, Site 5, RR 2, Ponoka, AB. T4J 1R2


--
Marlene Quiring from Central Alberta, joined 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marlene%20and%20Shadow
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271458


larkstabatha
 

Hi Marlene... I hope the following link will work for you to get to the new Donkey and Mule folder in the "Files" section of this Group. (Find the "Files" in the list running down the left margin of your screen).  Once you get in to the Files section, you will be able to use the Search feature at the top of the screen, or scroll down the list to see all the information that is available.  Lots of helpful resources!  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Donkey%20and%20Mule%20Specific%20Information

Thanks for your feedback on Mules and hyperlipidemia.

Best, Sally
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 


Marlene Quiring
 

Thank you Sally for getting that donkey and mule information up! I have read through most of it, although much flies over my head right now! I am attempting to make what changes I can with my mule Shadow, including penning her up for part of the day with a few whisps of hay only to chew on, and for the most time the other mules are in sight so she doesn't get too stressed. Blood was drawn yesterday to check if she might also have Cushings. I don't really think so, but this will tell. On the bright side, it was warm enough today, so we went for a 20 minute ride in the snow. She seemed a bit sore walking on the hard packed trail, but once in the deep snow, she was happy to trot and moved very freely. So she got some exercise. One day at a time, I guess?

Regards,
Marlene Quiring
 
Cell - 403 783-1723
Home - 403 783-5210
Box 29, Site 5, RR 2, Ponoka, AB. T4J 1R2


--
Marlene Quiring from Central Alberta, joined 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marlene%20and%20Shadow
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271458


larkstabatha
 

You are welcome Marlene!  However, Dr. Kellon and Nancy C. get credit for creating the folder and also added several new files.  I am glad to hear that you and Shadow had a good day!
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie