New photos and more questions


Mikaela Tapuska
 

A couple more questions for the group, please. I've uploaded another round of photos from before and after Zahr's most recent trim on Monday the 29th, continuing to follow mark-ups. This trim didn't go as well as last time, he was acting a bit anxious with the farrier and was having a hard time particularly with his hind legs, albeit I haven't noticed him being more stiff than normal when I walk him or work with his hind feet myself. 

His frogs are starting to shed and unfortunately a large piece (as in almost the whole thing) peeled off of his left front, and left a pretty deep groove in his sole where the tip of the frog had been stretched out to. This particular section was soft and with a pinker hue to it than surrounding tissues so I'm thinking it is immature and ideally should not have come off. Here is a photo of it: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/274255/3481225?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0

1 - Is there anything more I can do to help protect this area? He is already in boots 24/7. I put keratex on his soles twice weekly, and put some on that area to help harden it right after his trim but was thinking that may be too close to the frog to continue with. Zahr seemed tender on that foot in particular for a couple of days but yesterday was doing better and walking pretty evenly again.

2 - May I get some general feedback on his hind feet? With him seeming sore the other day he didn't get as much of a bevel on them as I think he needs, and I was thinking of rasping his back toes some more myself to try and make up for that.

3 - I understand that the trim needs to be correct before adding jiaogulan back into his diet. After the last 2 trims following mark-ups and hopefully improving mechanics, would we be in a safe spot to add it back in? Or should I be waiting longer until his feet are entirely corrected, and then add it back in? My guess is the latter, that he still has a ways to go yet but I wanted to double check with the group. He is on 3 week trim cycles.

4 - Would there be any other general comments/suggestions from the group for his next trim? My plan is to get another set of x-rays done at the end of September with his bloodwork so that we can see where we are and what progress, if any, has been made with his feet and his ACTH levels. I would like to have his feet in as ideal a shape as possible beforehand. I think his right front toe could be brought back more yet, although it seems to be in a better position than last time. 

The farrier was happy with his heels, she said that they already seemed to be relaxing downwards after the bevel she added last time. Plus he seems to have grown more sole in the last 3 weeks based on his collateral groove depth, so there are some positives in there too. Thank you as always for any suggestions!

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Mikaela,

I haven't had time to look closely but in the interests of reviving your post I'll offer some thoughts.

On the hinds, yes, toes can come back more.  If you look at his sole shots, see how the whiteline curves around nicely as a circle at the quarters, then smears forward (drops down in the photo view) at the toe?   Draw a line on the hoof to complete the smooth circle and you can go back at least that far with the toes.

His left hind has a bull-nosed appearence suggesting his coffin bone has a negative plantar angle.  He might be more comfortable with a wedge pad under that hoof to help the boney column alignment during this transition.  Scoot boots apparently now makes a 3 degree wedge pad.  One (or 2 stacked) of those might help with comfort.  You can also cut the pads so his outer heel walls are 'floating' but the bars, frog and quarter walls are still supporting weight resting on the pad, which will help that underrun heel stand up by taking some weight off of it.  Lavinia can advise further on this but I just saw a dramatic improvement in 4 weeks in my horse's underrun LH heel by following her advice.

Keep in mind he's older and changes to hooves are going to affect his upper body, too.  You might see more stiffness while he adjusts, perhaps making it hard to hold up his hind legs.  He could also have some abscess collections to mobilize.  It makes sense that he would be tender for a few days after shedding that frog tip.  Little things/setbacks like this will probably continue to occur but the effect should be temporary (a few days at most) and overall you should see an improvement in comfort with time.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Mikaela,

Agree with what Kirsten has already said. You can definitely take the hind toes back more, just leave everything else on them as is.

I know one of the frogs shed a lot - which was fine, except for the piece that wasn't quite ready to shed off. If you see frog shedding like that, cut it off at the point where it is still attached so the remaining part doesn't get peeled away prematurely. There was more of the frog that was then trimmed away as well - please stop trimming the frogs to make them look "neater". There are a lot of areas on both fronts frogs that are waxy in appearance - that is from being trimmed away, not shedding. The frogs need to callous off for Zahr to remain comfortable and able to use them.

Have a look at this link for some tips on getting the most from any radiographs you have done:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1571

The last ones cut the bottom of the feet off and were shot thru the block that the foot was on, which makes it harder to interpret them.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Mikaela Tapuska
 

Kirsten, I see what you mean by the white line smearing forward on his hinds. I beveled his toes back from underneath last night with your suggestion of completing the circle in mind. They could probably still be worked back some more, but he stood square right afterwards so hopefully that small change was a good start.

Is it possible that the bull-nosed appearance of his LH was in part due to the lighting? I've uploaded another photo of it from yesterday, there is still a bit of a light glare on the tip of his toe but the background behind his foot is darker so you can see the outline better. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/274255/3482798?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0
To me it doesn't look as exaggerated as in the first photo, but in both I can clearly see that underrun heel you mentioned (especially in comparison to his last trim). I can certainly look into getting him some hind boots to help out while his feet are changing.

Lavinia, thank you for your advice on his frogs and I will relay that on to my farrier. That was kind of my feeling afterwards, so I appreciate having you confirm that. There were some overgrown flaps on his central sulci and she took those off so that I could clean them out well and put coppertox in them as the ground gets moist again, which I appreciate. But otherwise, no trimming to waxiness. Perhaps that is in part why he is not moving so easily after this trim as he did last time. And I'll check out that link for his next x-rays, too.

Thank you both for taking the time to look at the photos and provide feedback. Much appreciated!

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Mikaela,

I too see a sight bullnose - that's not a lighting issue, but a trim issue that will need to be addressed.  The sooner you address it the better (of course).



 

Hi, Mikaela. I’m a broken record on the subject of trimming the hair to the coronary band. I’ll repeat it. It’s a big help to those of us trying to develop our eye to spot the real length of the hoof capsule, under-run heels and long toes. I recommend it. I’m not a fan of climbing around under my horse to get the entire hoof, so I lift the hoof to do the medial side and the backs of the heels. HTH. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Mikaela Tapuska
 

Hoof boot shopping it is then. Silly question, if I were to use an insert like the Scoot Boot wedge pad Kirsten mentioned it won't hurt him to use it in only the one boot and a regular flat pad in the other one, right? I know the idea is to correct the mechanics of the foot that needs correcting (LH) and leave the other alone if it is okay (RH). My brain just feels like it is wired to want to do the same thing to both sides to avoid causing an imbalance, but in practice that would not make sense for this issue.

And I can get his coronets trimmed up no problem, so the next round of photos should turn out better. 

Thank you!
--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Mikaela,

Using the pad under the LH hoof is correcting an existing imbalance, not creating one.  You might find he likes a flat or even a wedge pad under the RH, too, but in that case I'd put 2 pads under his LH since it needs the biggest boost.  Just play around with them to find what is comfortable. 

There's also an Aussie company that makes 3 degree rubber wedges, which do not compress down like a pad, and would be a better long term option.  These, with a 6mm pad on top for comfort if needed, would also work well.  That's what I've used because the scoot pads are a new product.
https://barehoofcare.com/product/natural-rubber-wedge-pads/

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Mikaela Tapuska
 

Thanks for confirming that, Kirsten! If anything is going to alter his mechanics, I like to quadruple check before using ;)
In your experience, when using wedges do you have to size the boot a size up from what they would ordinarily wear or are they good to stick with their actual boot size?

Re: the trim issues that need to be corrected on his left hind we would ideally back the toe as normal, correct, but be a bit more conservative with the heels for now? Continuing with the slight heel rocker, but just enough to keep encouraging a "downwards" growth rather than "forwards" and to prevent from lowering the already underrun heel further? From reading it sounds like trimming to fix a negative plantar angle is a bit of a balancing act between do enough without doing too much.

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I use Scoot boots on the hinds and Shaku's always fitted a bit loose because his underrun heels affected how snug the fit is.  Once I added the wedged rubber pads and a 6mm pad on top of that, the fit of his Scoots improved dramatically.  They are still too long in the toe, but I bought the size the owner of the company recommended based on photos I sent in at the time when his toes weren't being trimmed as short. 

So, this is what worked for Shaku.  We did years of trying to keep his LH toe short so that his heels would become less underrun, which definitely helped but never led to any major improvements.  So, Lavinia advised me to:
His boots should have aggressive bevels around the treads at the toes and across the heels. He might be appreciative of wedged pads in his hind boots for now, esp. for the LH. Experiment with getting the pads to be slightly lower around the perimeter under the walls - esp. in the heels - to encourage those heels to stand up more by removing the weight bearing from the walls.
Look at the difference after 4 weeks with a wedge pad with heel area cut out, topped by a 6mm pad....

July 28, trimmed then added wedge+pad to Scoots on hinds:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/82559/3463268?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C20%2C0

On Aug 14, trimmed and noted that things look much the same as July 28, but I rasped a few mm off the heel to remove wall that was folding over, which made his underrun heels look even worse:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/82559/3484932?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0

Aug 31, trimmed but left heels alone...his LH heel is noticeably improved...I was beyond amazed!!:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/82559/3483621?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0

This is our wedge-pad set up (see 4 photos in sequence):
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/82559/3484931?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0
Note that his weight is supported mainly by bars, sole, and frog.  Only the heel walls are partially 'floating'.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Mikaela Tapuska
 

Wow, what Shaku's feet went through in that sequence reminds me very much of Zahr's right now. That is a huge change after adding boots! 

Interestingly during some bodywork on Friday the massage therapist mentioned that Zahr's left hip was dropped significantly in comparison to his right one. That's been an issue in the past, but I wonder if the LH heel and his pelvic balance are currently stuck in a cause/effect loop - it'll be interesting to see as his feet are corrected.

Thank you so much for sharing your photos! Good to know the setup for the wedges.

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Mikaela Tapuska
 

Back again with a new round of photos and a couple more questions, please. Zahr had his farrier appointment at a little earlier than 3 weeks, which actually worked out pretty well as his feet had tried to pull forward again. I've included the before pictures from immediately prior to this trim in his album, and was able to get the afters the same day this time, too.

Because of how his feet had grown, the farrier asked if she could see Zahr walk barefoot (which he didn't love, poor guy, being on the barn aisle) but in doing so she noticed that his point of breakover had migrated farther forward than it should have been in both fronts. So she moved his toes back a fair amount again this time so that his feet could lift off the ground at the proper breakover point. She was happy, though, with the appearance of the hairline towards his heels. She mentioned they look like they are relaxing instead of curling down so much.

No frog trimming was done on his fronts this time. He was a little tender over his central sulci, although given it is still dry out would that perhaps be more indicative of his frogs being underdeveloped rather than an infection like thrush? I am applying coppertox in all crevices, including parts of the laminar wedge that have crumbled out, just to be on the safe side. 

Another thing I wanted to double check on was that Zahr's hoof walls can/should be beveled ALL the way around the circumference of his feet? Currently they are beveled to about his heel quarters and his heels are beveled as well, but the heel quarters themselves are still relatively flat as can be seen in the photos. I looked back at Lavinia's mark-ups and based on those I think we could probably have done more beveling in that area, but I wanted to make sure we won't be taking away important support by doing so. 

His hinds are looking better after this trim than last time to my eye but that LH heel is still pretty underrun (I haven't gotten the hind boots for him yet).

Zahr was walking a little slow immediately after his appointment yesterday, but apparently he tried to trot when he went outside this morning according to the barn owner who was turning out! So I am taking that as a positive sign. Other than my questions above, are we still on the right track with his trim and is there anything that I missed that needs to be tweaked?  

Thank you!
--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


 

Someone please correct me... I was thinking coppertox was toxic and no longer used.

Pete surely wouldn't use it :)


--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Nancy C
 

Right, Ellen.  There is a concern that CopperTox that can potentially kill live tissue.

For Pete's goo, Kirsten has posted about a Canadian version: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/265269

The best way to stop thrush IMO is to keep working on the trim. For laminitic and foundered horses, this can take some time but IME, it does work.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Mikaela Tapuska
 

It's not the original brand name coppertox, but it has a similar purpose. Not sure if that would have the same concerns as the original? 
https://avetlabs.com/product/copper-hoof-treatment

Maybe that is why the tack store no longer carries it and sells this one instead.

Prior to this, I used a solution of copper sulfate and vinegar mixed in a squeeze bottle and squeezed it into the crumbly parts of his white line. That worked quite well, too.

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Mikaela Tapuska
 

Actually, speaking of vinegar, would diluted apple cider vinegar be okay to use on his frog if the copper napthenate is damaging to live tissue? I remember reading about ACV somewhere in the forum, unfortunately I just didn't save the links.

I could also use Pete's goo, does that work as a preventative for thrush as well as a treatment? It would probably smell better than the vinegar ;)

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


Nancy C
 

Hi Mikaela

Try this thread.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/90210071#275498


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Mikaela Tapuska
 

Thanks Nancy!

--
Mikaela Tapuska in Calgary AB, 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mikaela%20and%20Zahr

Photo Album : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=274255


 

Hi, Mikaela. Frankly, my efforts did NOT cure Cayuse's frogs of thrush. In Cayuse's case, I suspect it persists because of uncontrolled PPID, inactivity from hoof pain, untrimmed frog flaps and possibly contaminated pads and/or hoof boots. I haven't given up. Once thrush has been around this long, we need to do any and everything to stamp it out. 

I'm doing a combination of treatments of the frogs and heels. I don't want to soak 45 minutes in White Lightning until I have a current sole depth measurement. The last soak didn't clear up the frog rot. It's not easy to get a horse to stand in a hoof soak for 45 minutes per hoof.  I'm cleaning the hoof as completely as I can with a quick ACV soak (1 cup ACV  to 1 gallon water) and brushing the sole repeatedly. Then I dry on a towel in the clean barn aisle and blow dry with a hair dryer.

I use a syringe to inject one version of Pete's goo into the heel crack and any holes in the frog. The goo contain a tad of ground copper sulfate, zinc oxide, and an anti-fungal athlete's foot treatment - Lotrimin AF. I mix it all in a small jar. It lasts several months.

After I syringe Pete's goo into the hoof crack, I plug the heel crack with medicinal hoof mud. The few I know about are Artimud, Field Paste, Pure Sole and Hoof Stuff. I also push the mud firmly into the central sulcus. The muds pop out about a couple of days and the process repeats. 

I can't say for sure this will work, but I agree that stronger, more corrosive treatments aren't better because we're dealing with living tissue whose growth we want to support with gentle anti-microbials.

I wash hoof boots frequently and rinse them with vinegar. I put them out in the sun after they dry (directions from manufacturer).

If you find something that works, be sure to let us know. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 After the seasonal rise is over I would consider doing a TRH stimulation to make sure you aren't dealing with a low ACTH form of  PPID.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."