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New photos for desi

Bobbie Day
 

I uploaded pictures of Desi’s feet today. I’m so sorry they’re
crappy ! We got several inches of snow and sunlight was fading fast. I know they’re not good quality but its just so hard on her and there’s mud everywhere, I’m hoping it’s enough for the trim suggestions?
I don’t know which is more embarrassing the pictures or her feet . Anyway the plan is for the farrier to come this Sunday and do a trim per your recommendations. I hope and pray this helps my little girl otherwise I’m afraid that I may have to let her go. I am beyond frustrated at my vets lack of desire to help us. He won’t do the injections, they balk at every test and look at me like I’m completely crazy for wanting to save her.  I sent her X-rays to her prior vet and she also thinks I should put her down.  but every farrier I’ve talked to says she’s not a lost cause but I can’t get them here .If I could just get her so she could travel I could take her to another state but right now she’s not able. I praying this (young) farrier can help her, right now it’s our only hope. 
--
Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

 

Hi, Bobbie -  I couldn't find the new photos anywhere!  You may have uploaded them in the wrong place.

Two quick questions:  1) Were the radiographs from November 29 before or after the trim? Has she been trimmed since then?  2) Did the vet come out to pull blood for ACTH?

Hang in there.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Bobbie Day
 

She has not been trimmed for six weeks, the new farrier wouldn’t trim until we got the new X-rays , now he won’t be back until next month which is way too late. He comes only every eight weeks.
Our old (younger) farrier agreed to trim her on Sunday if he gets direction.
I’ll check but I thought they all uploaded 😢
Thank you


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Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

Bobbie Day
 

Sorry, no they did not test her. We are having a disagreement, they said that “we really needed to go to a more equipped clinic “ that has the equipment needed etc.
And they will not do the injections dr. Kellon recommended. So my hope was I could get her well enough to travel to a bigger clinic where they could do both.


--
Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

Bobbie Day
 

They’re on there now, my apologies !

They are really dark , I am so sorry. We are in an inversion so there isn’t any light. And I couldn’t get her to hold her leg up for long.
If you could help direct the farrier in any way I would appreciate it so much. I just don’t know what else to do for her. I think I am being so selfish (I know I am) but I just can’t let her go without one more try.

Thanks again,  you have been so helpful and this group has been a godsend for me.

Bobbie

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


--
Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821 

Paula Hancock
 

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM, Bobbie Day wrote:
I think I am being so selfish (I know I am) but I just can’t let her go without one more try.
Hi Bobbie,
No, you are not being selfish!  As long as she is willing and able to continue, there is no good reason to stop trying to help her.  Your willing farrier is a gift and it looks like there is lots that can be done to get her feet set up better.  I will leave it to our gurus to advise, but just want to encourage you to trust yourself!
 
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (?)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx

 

 

Hi, Bobbie - You are not being selfish, in this case. You are listening to your own instincts, and, I think, to Desi. (more on that later)  Great job on the photos - it makes it all so much more clear! There is good news, and bad news. 

The really good news is that I can see a new hoof trying to grow, with good growth from the coronet band, on both front feet. Horses who are likely to have a very poor prognosis have that coronet area all jammed up, with very little growth there.

The bad news is that Desi has been suffering from a hideous trim since at least January of this year. The good news is that she now is on the correct diet, and you will be addressing the trim. Second bad news is that I truly think she will need trimming every 4 weeks at a minimum; better if it is every 2 weeks, which you should be able to do yourself (getting the farrier out every 4 weeks).  More bad news is that the Left fore picture doesn't look anything like the Left fore radiograph, so it is a little tough to make sense of that. 

The bad news is a lack of diagnosis regarding whether or not she has PPID. (more ideas on that to follow)

So, as far as the trim goes, make sure to show your new farrier the radiographs. He will be able to see that the coffin bone, and associated blood flow, is miles behind the toe. Did you see the mark-ups I put up on the rads? I will also put some mark-ups on the hoof photos. 

Now, regarding blood work. If you can get a relationship going with any of the small animal vet clinics in your area, you can get blood drawn and sent in. Don't even think about trailering Desi with those feet; plus the trailering itself will skew the blood results.  If you had a better rapport with your current vet, I would suggest that he prescribes a trial of pergolide, or Prascend, at this time. If you can find a small animal vet that will draw blood, and prescribe pergolide, so much the better. 

Now, regarding the opinions of the farrier and vet to put Desi down. 1) The trim has been really crap for at least a year, so I think, no matter how nice the farrier is, his opinion is not worth much  2)  Many vets suffer from a syndrome where, if there aren't fairly rapid, positive results, the knee-jerk reaction is to have the animal put to sleep. There are a number of psychological reasons for that (which I won't get into), but trust me when I say this is a common "system failure" of the profession.  "I myself can't make things better, so the best thing is euthanasia".  Just ignore.

The only two who can make this decision are you and Desi. Go and look into her face. Ask her. I know this sounds a bit twilight zone, but most animals are perfectly capable of letting the owners know whether they are tired, and want to go to sleep forever; and most owners are perfectly capable of tuning in to this information.

Now, for the trim: since she is finding it so hard to hold her feet up (not too surprising), there are a couple of things you and your new young guy can do. First, you can put her feet onto blue styrofoam blocks, and (if it were me) run a hacksaw right through that long toe, following up with the rasp - all while she is standing on the styrofoam, and without her picking up her feet. Using a hacksaw on the toe is actually a proven, approved, and incredibly useful way to get the toe back to a place where the rasp can be used. I say this as a practising veterinarian - there are lots of examples of this working extremely well.

Alternatively, your farrier can use nippers while the feet are on the ground, or up on the styrofoam. This is much more time-consuming, and wouldn't be my first recommendation because of that, but it all depends on what your farrier is comfortable with.

A third choice is to pick the foot up and aggressively cut the toe with nippers, but there are two problems with that: firstly, of course, it is very hard for her to hold her feet up. Secondly, nipping through that amount of laminar wedge might be very difficult.  If you are supporting her other foot on a styrofoam block, she may be able to hold her foot up longer, but be prepared for her to snatch the foot away. 

Here is a link to photos of a laminar wedge removal - but Blue's big wedge is actually much smaller than Desi's, so the nipper method may be too time-consuming. 
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

 

Here are my mark-ups, which are in no way as sophisticated as Lavinia's. However, the gist is clear: get that toe back by a long way; and on the right front you can lower the heels a smidge as well. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Bonnie
 

Is it just me or did the link to Blue's photos not appear in this message?
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 

Bobbie Day
 

Thank you !

This helps so much, I really needed the encouragement. My husband and I are in complete agreement that she is not ready to go, she is still her bossy little self, still demanding of our attention and vocalizing her demands all the time! I feel like if she was giving up she wouldn’t be so demanding. She still has her tantrums trying to buck and play which I have to remind her constantly that she is going to hurt herself and pay for that later.

I have sent the mark ups to the farrier, my worry is that he will cancel on us but so far so good.
As far as keeping her trimmed your right we can and will do it ourselves.

We only  have one clinic in town that does large animals, but I just sent a message requesting what you suggested. I asked for the RX and told them the game plan so I am crossing my fingers. You never know if your going to offend when you consult another professional but I hope they’ll come around. I know this is new to a old time vet with old ideas but things are not always black and white.

Anyway, I’ll let you know how that goes, and again I can’t  tell everyone how much I appreciate the help and encouragement.

Bobbie

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


--
Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821 

 

It's not just you! I thought I had included it, but obviously not.  Here it is:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77267   

Thank you, Bonnie!
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Josephine Trott
 

HI Jaini and Bobbi,

I just looked at the rads and hoof pictures.  It looks like the 'true' LF heel is off the ground in both the photo and the radiograph.  The mark ups didn't include taking back the heel on that LF so the ground contact surface extends back to the widest part of the frog.  I think that would be helpful no?

Josie
Davis CA 06/09

 

Hi, Josie, and thanks for noticing! The lack of mark-up on that left heel is on purpose, for three reasons: 1) from the photos, it is pretty tough to see exactly where the heels are  2) on the radiograph, the coffin bone looks like it is approaching ground parallel, so I don't think removing the heel is appropriate at this time; and 3) The toes so desperately need to be addressed, that toes are the place to start. A little off the heel of the RF is appropriate.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I agree it's unclear exactly what's going on with the heels. There may be some medial-lateral imbalance in this foot though and at least correcting that would be appropriate.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001

Josephine Trott
 

HI Jaini and Bonnie,

Perhaps if Bonnie can get new photos after the trim (maybe Desi will be more comfortable in a week or so post trim so cleaning/photographing hooves is easier) that will help?  Xray says don't lower LF heel and also that the leg wasn't weighted. Photo says otherwise :)  At least that LF coffin bone hasn't rotated like the RF.

Good luck Bonnie chopping those toes.  I've seen worse but....

Josie
Davis CA 06/09

Bobbie Day
 

Thanks
I thought maybe it was me as well !
Regarding the vet, they have finally agreed to put her on Pergolide. They have to order it so as soon as I get it I’ll confirm dosing.
They also said they would do the blood work “if that is really what I want “
So I will also get that scheduled.
I wanted everyone to know des and I had another talk today, she is having a good day , no obvious pain (knock on wood)
I’m caustically optimistic 😊
Anyway, she’s not ready and I’ve known that all along that’s why I’ve been fighting for her so much. When I rescued her she was for my granddaughters and although they don’t get to see her as often as we would all like, she’s a big part of our family and I have to do my best for her. When I take a horse or any animal on, doesn’t matter if they’ve been with us they’re whole life or like Des four years, I give it my all. I’m ALL in ❤️


--
Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's not always possible to "read" a laminitic foot from the outside. The radiographs will tell the true story.

The LF hasn't rotated because she is shifting weight to the right to get away from the painful L pastern pathology. It's a good sign she had a relatively painfree day today.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001

Bobbie Day
 

Now what ?
Ok just when I thought I had this in the bag my vet emailed and wants the name of the “specialist “ I’m talking to so she can connect about dosage, what to use etc.
I told her I would forward the information so I just thought I would send them the link to the home page. I am thinking they want to be sure I’m not coming up with this myself?
I’m sure someone else has probably had this come up, what’s the usual protocol for this?
Thanks again


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Bobbie and Desi
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 You can give them my name, my web page www.drkellon.com, ECIR Inc page www.ecirhorse.org and my direct e-mail drkellon "at" gmail.com and if you drop me a mail yourself l'll give you my resume (aka curriculum vitae).
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001