Now VIt. E (was But E)


Stephanie
 


Hi,
May I please ask where is the best source for the Vitamin E? Or I just buy it from the store?
Stephanie in Maryland 2022


Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Stephanie. Welcome to the group. Your first post here generates a welcome letter for you. This letter covers the cornerstones of the ECIR protocol and specifically has a section on diet- This is a great informational letter in case you have future questions about diet- you can save it to your computer for future reference.

Generally speaking, you can google Vit E and you will see a whole bunch of places to purchase it from. We recommend getting a Vit E that is combined with an oil as this enhances its uptake within the horse. Some folks feed gel caps of Vitamin E that have a small amount of oil within the capsule. Some folks feed Emcelle, which is another form of Vitamin E. You can find Vit E in capsules in healthfood stores. You will also find that your horse may or may not like the gel caps. Some folks pierce the gel cap with a pin and squeeze out the contents onto the horses food. You can absolutely buy it in a store or online. So, I hope that helps and of course if you have any other questions we would be happy to help you.  

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

 

--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Lorna Cane
 

Stephanie,I use Costco.Brand is Webber,400iu,in oil.
--
Lorna in Eastern Ontario
2002


Nancy C
 

Hi Stephanie

I have used Puritan Pride 400 IU for 20 years. Where ever you go look for an oil carrier. In this case soy oil is used.

https://www.puritan.com/vitamin-e-024/vitamin-e-400-iu-100-percent-natural-000542

There is a nice piece on the many intricacies of Vitamin E in the ECHorsekeeping subgroup files  -Vit E Recommendations.doc

You'll need to join the subgroup.
 --
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I'll just add that you can buy vitamin E powder and mix in the oil yourself.  I think this is one of the more economical options.  There are lots of brands selling powdered vit E for horses.   My Best Horse is one source.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Valletta Lochridge
 

Thanks, Kirsten.  I have a horse care person take over when I'm away and I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible for her.  If it were only me doing the supplements, I'd probably go with the powder/oil mixing option.  Guess I could always try mixing a batch for the time I'm away and keeping it in the fridge for her to measure out for the boys???  Hmmmmm..........Might give that a try and compare with the Liquid E that I ordered.

Valletta in CA
2012

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 6:44 AM Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...> wrote:
I'll just add that you can buy vitamin E powder and mix in the oil yourself.  I think this is one of the more economical options.  There are lots of brands selling powdered vit E for horses.   My Best Horse is one source.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


 

Hi, Valletta. No, don't premix powdered Vitamin E with oil. Tons of information is covered in the ECHorsekeeping link Nancy provided, including a warning against premixing.
Vit E Recommendations.doc

There's also a price comparison of the various forms of Vitamin E, tho with recent price jumps it probably understates the costs. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files/-Vitamin%20E%20Compare%20Cost.pdf 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Lesley Bludworth
 

Cass, the link that says Vit E recommendations.doc is connected to a document that reads horse keeping but I see no vit e info or link to vit e info there. Is there another step from that link?


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Cass in NorCal <cbernstein@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 11:28:39 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Now VIt. E (was But E)
 
Hi, Valletta. No, don't premix powdered Vitamin E with oil. Tons of information is covered in the ECHorsekeeping link Nancy provided, including a warning against premixing.
Vit E Recommendations.doc

There's also a price comparison of the various forms of Vitamin E, tho with recent price jumps it probably understates the costs. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files/-Vitamin%20E%20Compare%20Cost.pdf 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


 

Hi, Lesley.
Sorry about that! I added the same document as a PDF document, so this link to Files in EC Horsekeeping might work easier for you. It's down near the bottom of the page. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Lesley Bludworth
 

Cass,  I'm not sure what I'm missing. Maybe its because I'm viewing from my Samsung phone.  The whole page is about execute, group address, hashtags...  there are just tons of  dates at the bottoms of the page but nothing that give a title of content


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Cass in NorCal <cbernstein@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 5:46:20 PM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Now VIt. E (was But E)
 
Hi, Lesley.
Sorry about that! I added the same document as a PDF document, so this link to Files in EC Horsekeeping might work easier for you. It's down near the bottom of the page. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


 

Lesley, 
You may not be missing a thing. But I believe the page you're looking at is the EC Horsekeeping Home page. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping 
If you're already subscribed, you may need to hit the "Hamburger" icon in the center of the bottom of the page: it's a stack of 3 horizontal lines, like a stack of coin. That link will reveal the Photos, Files, WIKI and other sections.

If you are not subscribed to the subgroup, you can do it easily from the Home Page. Just above the dates and columns on the EC Horsekeeping Home page, you'll see a link to subscribe by email. After you're subscribed, you will be able to see the messages, topics, Files, etc.

BTW, if you would kindly delete the quoted text from your messages and just post a reply with the name of the person you're replying to, it would be appreciated. The quoted text hides your signature. 

Thanks,
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Lesley Bludworth
 

Cass,  
Thank you, got the hamburger part.
I don't have a clue what the quoted text is.. Is it a message from my phone? 
Nothing shows here






From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Cass in NorCal <cbernstein@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 7:32:25 PM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Now VIt. E (was But E)
 
Lesley, 
You may not be missing a thing. But I believe the page you're looking at is the EC Horsekeeping Home page. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping 
If you're already subscribed, you may need to hit the "Hamburger" icon in the center of the bottom of the page: it's a stack of 3 horizontal lines, like a stack of coin. That link will reveal the Photos, Files, WIKI and other sections.

If you are not subscribed to the subgroup, you can do it easily from the Home Page. Just above the dates and columns on the EC Horsekeeping Home page, you'll see a link to subscribe by email. After you're subscribed, you will be able to see the messages, topics, Files, etc.

BTW, if you would kindly delete the quoted text from your messages and just post a reply with the name of the person you're replying to, it would be appreciated. The quoted text hides your signature. 

Thanks,
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Nancy C
 

Lesley

Do you hit the quote text icon when responding, by any chance?

Quote the entire message you are replying to

  1. Under the message you want to reply to, click the Reply link.
  2. On the text formatting toolbar above the text editing box, click the Quote post icon at the far left. The message text is inserted automatically at the top of your reply’s text editing box, along with the message’s posting date and time and the author’s name.

Here is what the Quote post icon looks like in the HTML editor (the icon is similar in the Markdown and Plain Text editors):



--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Nancy C
 

Lesley -- PS...

You are set to receive individual emails. If you are responding to them via email, you may need to change your email software preferences to not include the full quoted text.

To see what we see, please go here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/280629

Look under your Android marketing link at the bottom for "Quoted text".

Nancy C in NH 2003
ECIR Group MOD


Sherry Morse
 

Lesley,

You are including the entire message you are replying to when you respond.  For the sake of those who are reading are on Digest we ask that you please do not do this as it makes the digest very long for those who receive messages that way.




Lesley Bludworth
 

I'm just hitting reply on my phone.  There are no quote bubbles, but i will problem solve it.
Thank you !


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Sherry Morse via groups.io <sherry_morse@...>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 9:25:19 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Now VIt. E (was But E)
 
Lesley,

You are including the entire message you are replying to when you respond.  For the sake of those who are reading are on Digest we ask that you please do not do this as it makes the digest very long for those who receive messages that way.




--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History


Maxine McArthur
 

Lesley, when I use my phone to access the group I use the groups.io app. It is easy to view and access messages. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Lesley Bludworth
 

Oh! Thank you, okay, will do that


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Maxine McArthur <maxineemc@...>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 1:30:09 PM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Now VIt. E (was But E)
 
Lesley, when I use my phone to access the group I use the groups.io app. It is easy to view and access messages. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History