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Off Feed Again


Buzz
 

We are still struggling with Dame. I finally have her up to 1mg prascend and 10ml APF PRO. Just been on that for 10 days. The past few days she has shown signs of the vail and off her feed again and dropping wt. Such a delicate balance! Should I just keep increasing the APF? She is more interested in the other horses out in the field than she is eating. My vet wanted her on TC Sr, beet pulp and ODTB cubes. She felt the molasses in the TC Sr was not as important as getting wt on her. I make a slurry out of the TC Sr and that gets her to eat some, but still off. She cannot eat hay. I have to soak everything, very poor teeth issues that have been addressed with equine dentist.  She also gets 2000iu Vit E, absorb all, 8 oz TC flax seed, J herb and Uckele Gut. I know I need to update her CH and will do that asap. Thank you for your help in advance. Without this groups help I would be lost!!

--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Marsha, I was struggling with the veil with both of mine too but a suggestion I tried is splitting up when I gave APF Pro and prascend.  I was giving them both midday with a second dose of apf pro at night.

I changed to give 10 ml of apf pro one time per day at about 11am ad then they get prascend at 7pm at night with their nighttime hay and mash and this is what finally worked for my mare.

I managed to get my gelding on the full dose of praacend this way as well..still working on the right dose of Apf for him 10 ml one time per day may not be quite enough. He is on day 5 of his full dose of prascend and he was a little slower eating his mash today than he had been si I may go up with 12ml of apf pro and then titrate down.

Hope this helps:)
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


 

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.


My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Buzz
 

Thank you  Nancy for offering your suggestions. I did do exactly as you said, by giving her the APF mid day and then  prascend with her evening feeding. It was working well til this week, then she  became uninterested in her mid day feeding.
I also was thinking of going up and then titrating downward after a few days. Good luck with your gelding. Glad to hear you have your mare doing well! It is such a balance with each one being different! Thank you!!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Buzz
 

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 06:06 PM, Martha McSherry wrote:

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.


My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

 On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 06:06 PM, Martha McSherry wrote:

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.


My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

 Hi Martha! Yes, I have gradually titrated up on her APF pro, but only as I increased her dose of pergolide. Initially I did 4 days of just APF before retrying her on prascend. That may be what is confusing and I may need to adjust my CH. Im not very good navigating the site yet, but still working on it! What happebed was I tried  the prascend first, no APF,  that did not work! So, I had to take her off the prascend and started all over again Using APF.  I spoke with Dr Van Noy at Abbott and he said you can either titrate up or start at 10 ml and go down. Either way was safe to do. I have also given the APF mid day and then the prascend at evening feeding.
--
My vet wants to test again in Jan. Which I wondered about as that's awhie off and I dont like having to wonder if her dose is helping or not. 

She takes at least 2 hrs to eat a feeding, ususlly a bit longer. I do soak it all.  She has a mini friend in the barn with her, but the others are out and I dont own them. So I feed at 8:30 - 9 am and try to let her out for an hr or so before it's time to feed mid day. Then try to get her back out  for a couple hrs before evening meal. She eats dome grass, but quids a lott to. The only hay I have found that she likes and can eat some is Teff. So, it's important for her to do the 3 meals to try to keep wt on her,  but she has an old track fetlock injury and will stock up if she is in a stall all day.  It is  huge balancing act with her care. And yes, Martha she is super sensitive. Always had been. I hope Ive answered your questions and clarified our situation. Thank you so much Martha! Any further ideas, I am totally open! 

Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Buzz
 

Martha, are you saying the pergolide is not as effective during the seasonal rise and takes longer during the rise to take effect?


--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Marsha, my super sensitive guy did the same again today after 5 days on his full dose he went off his mash today.... and he is eating hay a lot slower.  Because he is such a sensitive fellow, I am going to go back to the last dose he was comfortable at which was three quarters of the full dose.  I.have a call into my vet too to see what I should do.  At least we have this group for guidance and moral support. 🥰🥰 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


LJ Friedman
 

Why do you have a calling to the vet? Won’t you get the most correct answers. suggestions ie here?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

LJ because is is important to me that she is in the loop with everything. She has been instrumental in getting Vinnie to where he is and since he is not PPID,  he is in normal ranges w/o prascend --we only began pergolide because his acth was normal but higher than it had been conpared with previous tests, and he started to look more metabolic (cresty and more fat pads-- even though.his diet had been dialed in) we started him on a low dose for during seasonal rise intending to stop in December and test in January. .. 🥰🥰
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


 

Thanks, Marsha.  I’m sure you meant Dr. Van Noy of Auburn, rather than Abbott, but I will clarify that here for anyone reading.   I had not read about that APF dosing schedule before but your and Nancy’s posts led me to think I might be missing something.  APF protects against the unwanted effects of hormonal changes rather than absolute dosages so if you continue increasing pergolide to say 3 mg, you should not need to triple the APF given.

There’s been evidence that increasing pergolide (which includes starting it) during the seasonal rise is less effective than at other times of year.  I believe this is a relatively new observation.  As I understand it, the pergolide you are giving will become more effective as the rise subsides.  I went through many years of adjusting pergolide doses without knowing this or observing that kind of anomaly myself, which probably says more about my observational skills than anything else.  Just wanted you to be aware of this.

Have you considered putting some of her feed into a feed bag for her to wear for some outside time with her friends?  I used one for Logo to administer his meds without having to keep watch.  I considered putting one on a pony outside because he gets bullied away from the outside hay but I did not actually try that. 
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

LJ,

We are NEVER a substitute for the attending veterinarian. We can share our experiences and the published literature but that's it.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Buzz
 

Thank you Martha! The feed bag is a good idea. She cant really ingest much grass anyway so it certainly may be an option.  Doing the best we can with the help of our vet and ECIR!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Martha,

Would you expand on this topic:

"APF protects against the unwanted effects of hormonal changes rather than absolute dosages"

I had been curious what causes the veil and how APF was addressing it. I had assumed it was slightly causing tummy issues because of appetite reduction, but now that you mention hormone changes that piqued my interest to learn more. It is such a useless to me that some horses adjust so easily but ky two have been so sensitive. 

PS. My vet advised for Vinnie to try and push through the veil and stick with the dose we are on.

Thanks in advance. 

Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

We don't know for sure what causes the pergolide side effects but Martha's veterinarian daughter thought it reminded her of how dog's with Addison's disease look.    Addison's is the opposite of Cushing's - low cortisol instead of high. One theory is that the sudden drop in hormones may trigger the "veil".   That  makes sense.  If normal ACTH production is being suppressed in uncontrolled PPID it may take it a while to kick back in.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer