Pain Alternatives


cjfacey6@...
 

Good morning, 


Wondering if anyone has any suggestions on other pain alternatives to try? Ribbon if off NSAID's now, but I cannot get her to eat the Phyto-quench with DC, I bought the granular CocoSoya to mix in and she is still not wanting to touch it. I have been giving her Herb Pharm Devil's Claw liquid extract, I have been giving her 1 syringe full AM/PM, but not sure how much of that she is getting, she resists that quite a bit. She loves the Jiaogulan, so I really want to avoid putting her back on NSAID's, I know that is not the answer. She is very sore since coming off the Equioxx, has to shift onto her hind end to take a step forward, she is not wanting to weight her R front leg, I have wrapped her L front leg to help with swelling. She has access to a 12x24 run, so she can move if she feels up to it. She has been wearing Cloud boots 24/7. She will be getting a trim this coming Wednesday and I have had mark-ups already done for upcoming trim. I have begun titrating her Prascend up as the current dosage she was getting was not keeping her ACTH number down.


Should I try increasing the DC or try a powdered version (as that might be easier for me to get it down her)? She is an incredibly picky eater. My vet also mentioned Tylenol as an option at one point for us if we did not want to do NSAID's, but I have read that has not been very helpful for horses.

Thank you
Courtney

 
--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Courtney,

See the message Cass just posted about this Re: New member (groups.io) and also remember that you need to address Ribbon's trim as part of her recovery.  Looking at the x-rays from last week there's still quite a bit to be done on that front.




On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 12:38:54 PM EDT, cjfacey6@... <cjfacey6@...> wrote:


Good morning, 


Wondering if anyone has any suggestions on other pain alternatives to try? Ribbon if off NSAID's now, but I cannot get her to eat the Phyto-quench with DC, I bought the granular CocoSoya to mix in and she is still not wanting to touch it. I have been giving her Herb Pharm Devil's Claw liquid extract, I have been giving her 1 syringe full AM/PM, but not sure how much of that she is getting, she resists that quite a bit. She loves the Jiaogulan, so I really want to avoid putting her back on NSAID's, I know that is not the answer. She is very sore since coming off the Equioxx, has to shift onto her hind end to take a step forward, she is not wanting to weight her R front leg, I have wrapped her L front leg to help with swelling. She has access to a 12x24 run, so she can move if she feels up to it. She has been wearing Cloud boots 24/7. She will be getting a trim this coming Wednesday and I have had mark-ups already done for upcoming trim. I have begun titrating her Prascend up as the current dosage she was getting was not keeping her ACTH number down.


Should I try increasing the DC or try a powdered version (as that might be easier for me to get it down her)? She is an incredibly picky eater. My vet also mentioned Tylenol as an option at one point for us if we did not want to do NSAID's, but I have read that has not been very helpful for horses.

Thank you
Courtney

 
--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


cjfacey6@...
 

Yes, her trim is being addressed. I did not know about this list for picky eaters though, so thank you for sending the link.

--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Nancy C
 

Just supporting your endeavor to get PQ into your mare, Courtney. Using small amounts to help them get used to it works well.

In addition, pain relief can be immediate and lasting when the trim is correctly addressed. It takes time for anyone unfamiliar with hoof form fundamentals to see this, but learning is an investment returned ten-fold.
https://www.ecirhorse.org/laminitis.php
https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-trim.php
https://www.ecirhorse.org/realigning-trim.php

See also Lavinia's two lectures here:
https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



cjfacey6@...
 

Thank you for the suggestion Nancy. I will try adding just a bit of it to see if she eats it. I have reviewed the links about the trim to the ECIR website, but it is a good reminder to look over them again. I will definitely check out Lavinia's lectures. Just trying to figure out how to get her to eat the PQ in the mean time until she gets a trim, as I have heard it can be very helpful. 

I have read some people have used baby food -carrot flavor, but I thought carrots were a no due to sugar. 
--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Nancy C
 

Hi Courtney

Instead of carrot I would explore Cass's suggestions here, the message Sherry pointed to

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/281495

You can also try leaving a bit around to help her get used to the smell.

Good for you for re-reviewing hoof info. Once you get hooked it becomes something you learn from every time you go there. I bet you know this however, once the diagnosis side is addressed,  fixing the foot -- the trim -- is the best pain reliever.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



 

Courtney,
You're right: whole carrots are a NO. Baby food carrots or homemade carrot puree (like carrot juice) were suggested to help the many members like me who have a horse that strenuously resists syringing critical medication like dissolved Prascend or compounded pergolide. The amount of carrot is usually a teaspoon or less, a tiny amount but enough to allow daily syringing without too much drama.

Pelleted supplements like PQ are already formulated to make them attractive to our horses. Start small, a teaspoon, with another pelleted feed your horse already likes. You can crush up the Stabul1 Nuggets into pellet sized pieces.  Increase the amount of PQ gradually. The trick is to get past the suspicion of new things, especially when a horse is in pain. It recently took me at least a week. When I restarted PQ yesterday, it went down easily.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


cjfacey6@...
 

Oh awesome, thank you for the suggestions. I will add in a tsp and start there. I definitely think I added in too many things at once. Going to start from square one, she gobbles up the haystack pellets with the Jiaogulan, so will add in a bit of that. 


If I am doing liquid DC in the interim, how much can a full-size horse have? (She weighs about a 1000lb). The syringe I have measures in ml. 
--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Sherry Morse
 

What is the dosage of DC on the product you have?  Is it a horse product like Equimins Devils Claw Liquid Joint Supplement | Rideaway USA (rideawaystore.com)? Or something designed for people?  If it's a people version you probably need to multiply the dosage by 10 for a thousand pound horse (at least).




cjfacey6@...
 

Hi Sherry, it is designed for people, I bought it from someone else who has some on hand. I do not think the dosage she is getting is doing anything for her and she absolutely hates it. According to the label on the bottle, a serving size is 0.7ml and instructions are to add one dropper full (which is about 1ml) to 2oz of water 2-4 times per day (obviously for a human). I have been giving her 3ml AM/PM (so in total she has been getting 6ml per day). I am sure that is not doing anything. It says "extraction rate 233mg herb per 0.7ml." 

I have slowly begun adding in the PQ + DC as recommended by Cass's recommendation, so hopefully she will begin to eat that. 

Do you recommend getting a "horse version" of DC? She will be getting trimmed tomorrow so hopefully that will help with foot pain, but she is pretty painful right now, so still just trying to figure out what to do to help with her pain. 
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Sherry Morse
 

If you have the PQ+DC you're already using a horse version.  I would focus on that and skip the human version unless you're planning on giving her 10mls at a time 2-4x a day.





 

wondering if Lavinia has seen the x-ray taken just a few days ago (after her markups were done I assume)

 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


cjfacey6@...
 

Yes she has seen the X-rays, she is getting a trim tomorrow which I know will help. Will continue working on getting the PQ in her. 
--
Courtney F. in OR 2022

Ribbon Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Courtney%20and%20Ribbon

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276443


Lesley Bludworth
 

Courtney,
I hope your horse is doing better!
I think the PC smells like poop. I hope you are having success with feeding it!
I had been syringing it after grinding it in my Vitamix.  I  cannot stand the smell of it, it just mixed with water and flax to give it some thickness when I syringe it  
I do not think there is any way my mare will ever eat this stuff!  But I can syringe it.  She is good with that. 
It did not help her pain tho,
I finally used CBD oil with her with very good success.  1000mg.  She is no longer getting anything for pain thank goodness but my boarders horse (PPID 30 years old) who has been on equinox for 2 years just had an accident and the vet put him on banamine but then he developed ulcers so now, off the NSAIDs and on Ulcerguard and I am giving him syringed Tylenol as he will not eat without it
I grind it in the vitamix with water and put 2 packs of stevia and a little apple sauce in and some J herb.  It is disgusting. and I have to hold his mouth and rub under his jaw to get him to swallow but he is 30 and in a lot of pain, not sweating, etc.   The tylenol seems to work well for him as about 15 min after giving it to him he will start to eat.  I am thankful for having something that gives him some relief.
--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Lesley,

I just want to mention that dosing with PC pellets is very flexible. You can go to twice daily or even double dose twice daily.

Is that 1000 mg of actual CBD?

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Lesley Bludworth
 

Dr Kellon,  
I had tried double dose with the PC even with an added a scoop of devil's claw for my mare.  
I really was desperate to give her some pain relief but I didn't see much change on it.  
The CBD oil is sold with how much is in 1 Ml I believe??  I got it from a smoke shop but when I went to the feed store, they had a bottle of 3000 mg per dose for horses. 1 ml of the 1000 mg worked well x 2 a day.   
I had a gelding with advanced navicular and a torn flexor tendon and the CBD (charlottes Web ) worked immediately in him, may have just made him feel more relaxed but he would instantly walk better.
I will try the PC with my boarder's horse but he is not the easy to syringe type.  I end up wearing it and much on the ground...If I get him to swallow half, I am lucky, and as I said, I do think the PC smells like poop so its not great to wear 🙂


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 8:57 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Pain Alternatives
 
Lesley,

I just want to mention that dosing with PC pellets is very flexible. You can go to twice daily or even double dose twice daily.

Is that 1000 mg of actual CBD?

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Can you tell me exactly what the label said? I seriously doubt it was 3000 mg per dose. Many producers are being extremely vague about what is actually in their oil and the concentration. For example, the 1000 mg may have been 1000 mg of hemp extract per bottle.

Charlotte's Web is a whole spectrum extract, not a pure CBD isolate https://www.charlottesweb.com/all-charlottes-web-hemp-cbd-supplements/cbd-oils . Their strongest product is 60 mg of CBD per ml. To give 1000 mg of actual CBD you would have to give 16.6 ml of their strongest product. Does that sound right?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


Lesley Bludworth
 

Dr Kellon,
I have no idea.  
I lost the bottle I just bought and I no longer have the Charlotte's web... got that a long time ago when CBD wasn't a thing yet, it also was the 1000mg version.
Worked on dog and horse.
I took the Charlotte's web 1 time when the vet came to put my gelding down, I did not like how I felt on it seemed to dilate my eyes although I did feel relaxed.
It was 1oz bottle with a 1 ml? syringe.
Gave 1 syringe full to horse, only a little to dog.
I didn't buy any of the stronger version.


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 9:29:47 AM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Pain Alternatives
 
Can you tell me exactly what the label said? I seriously doubt it was 3000 mg per dose. Many producers are being extremely vague about what is actually in their oil and the concentration. For example, the 1000 mg may have been 1000 mg of hemp extract per bottle.

Charlotte's Web is a whole spectrum extract, not a pure CBD isolate https://www.charlottesweb.com/all-charlottes-web-hemp-cbd-supplements/cbd-oils . Their strongest product is 60 mg of CBD per ml. To give 1000 mg of actual CBD you would have to give 16.6 ml of their strongest product. Does that sound right?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."


--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749


Lesley Bludworth
 

I found the bottle.
Pacific CBD Co.
CBD oil 1000mg.  Ingredients Hemp seed oil, MCT, flavoring, Pure CBD Crystalline.
So not full spectrum but did the job!
--
Lesley Bludworth 
Phoenix, AZ
Sophie Case History 7/2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SophieB%20Case%20History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277749


 
Edited

I don't know about AZ, but in California the cannabis labeling law requires labeling the milligram of cannabinoid in the whole container.  https://pacificcbdco.com/products/pacific-cbd-co-cbd-drops-mango-flavor-1000mg 
For the  30 ml container shown, the potency is 33.33 mg/ml (1000÷30).
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos