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Please help with hay analysis
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I have uploaded a new hay analysis PDF to our case history folder. Please help to evaluate: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus/EQ148396.pdf
Thank you! -- Ed P in TX 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=273196
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Ed,
There is nothing that particularly concerns me about this hay and it can easily be balanced. However, you ran the #601 instead of the #603. The difference is the lab uses NIR technology to only estimate the ESC and starch instead of an actual calculation using wet chemistry. If you want the actual ESC and starch, call the lab and ask them to run a #644 on the sample they already have. Then you'll have the equivalent of a #603 test. Carol Broyles Spring Valley, Ohio August 2007
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Sherry Morse
Hi Ed, If this was done via NIR testing the numbers for ESC+starch can be off by as much as 30%. With that in mind, I wouldn't feed this hay without soaking. I would also contact EA and see if they could at least run the carb pack (on the hay so you have accurate ESC and Starch numbers)
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Hi Carol,
Hi Sherry, Thanks for the responses! I'm soaking this (and any other) hay for an hour before feeding. I talked with the lab and they said that NIR has all checks and balances in place and that the tests are pretty much equivalent. I'm not knowledgeable in this so I took their word for it. This is the first cutting from the field that I will continue buying from if the hay is good. The previous sample was from the same field, but the third cutting of last year. To an untrained eye they look comparable - I'm not sure if that's accurate, of if this is even relevant. I can certainly call them and try to get them to run #644 if they still have the remainder of the sample. Should I? Thanks! -- Ed P in TX 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=273196
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Sherry Morse
Hi Ed, If it were my horse I would call and ask them to confirm that 644 is done via Wet Chem and if they still have your sample and can run it.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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gypsylassie
Hi Ed, I don't know why, but several labs I've worked with seem to push the NIR as very accurate, when we know how far off it can be. A lab not too far from me here in N IL, which has a good rating and I thought would be convenient
and fast, actually started telling me their wet chem machine for measuring sugar and starch was down and I'd have to make do with NIR. I went back to Equi Analytical. They also seem to tout NIR, but at least they're happy to do wet chem when we request
it. FWIW
Laura K. Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL
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Yes, Ed, follow Carol’s advice.
-- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos
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Hi Ed,
Many members here have had NIR and wet chem run on the same samples. The NIR results seem to consistently underestimate the ESC and possibly starch. The lab refuses to admit to the large discrepancis we see. I'm sorry you were talked in to doing NIR. It's not actually an analysis where the sample goes through traditional wet chemistry techniques. It's a comparison of reflected infrared light wavelengths coming off the sample. In NIR spectroscopy, the unknown substance is illuminated with a broad-spectrum (many wavelengths or frequencies) of near infrared light, which can be absorbed, transmitted, reflected or scattered by the sample of interest. The illumination is typically in the wavelength range of 0.8 to 2.5 microns (800 to 2500nm). The light intensity as a function of wavelength is measured before and after interacting with the sample, and the diffuse reflectance, a combination of absorbance and scattering, caused by the sample is calculated.The lab runs standards/duplicates to check their accuracy, but the problem is their standards and duplicates may not encompass the range of hays they recieve from customers. There is lots of room for results to be totally wrong. Generally, a quantitative NIR analysis is accomplished by selecting a group of calibration samples, for which the concentration of the analyte of interest has been determined by a reference method, and fining a correlation between various spectral features and those concentrations using a chemometric tool. The calibration is then validated by using it to predict the analyte values for samples in a validation set, whose values have been determined by the reference method but have not been included in the calibration. A validated calibration is then used to predict the values of samples.It's a prediction of what the sample is likely to be. NIR is ok as a first pass method to screen multiple hays cheaply, but the values reported by NIR should be confirmed by wet chemistry analysis. You can request the 644 package, but it may be cheaper to ask them to upgrade your analysis to the 603 package since they will only charge you for 603 (and not 601) if you upgrade. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
HI Ed,
Also worth noting is that the National Forage Testing Association, which provides accreditation for forage testing labs, does NOT accept NIR results as valid for sugar and starch. -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR
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Thank you for all the replies! I'll definitely call the lab on Monday and see what they can do to re-test properly. It's easy for an inexperienced person to get mislead. I'll post the new results in this thread, when available.
Thank you again! -- Ed P in TX 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=273196
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Just talked to the lab. They were happy to do 644 on the remainder of the sample. They reiterated that even though they didn't know about other labs, their (Equi-Analytical) calibration is based on tens of thousands of results and their NIR and wet chemistry rarely differ by more than one point. I insisted that they did it anyway so it'll be interesting to compare the results once they send them to me. In any case it's better to run a more accurate test. Thanks!
-- Ed P in TX 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=273196
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Hi, Ed. I generally core 25-40% of the bales in any load of hay I buy. That produces more than enough of a sample to check NIR vs wet chemistry of ESC. If I do Equi-Analytical the favor of running the 603/wet chemistry test first, a subsequent NIR can produce results for ESC that EA touts. Note that *I* supplied the perfect match for the NIR database by paying for a 603 analysis first.
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I just uploaded the wet chemistry carb analysis results: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus/EQ148649.pdf. Lo and behold, all numbers are higher than NIR. Thank you everyone for your comments. I learned my lesson.
Could you please help me interpret the results? Thank you! -- Ed P in TX 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Edward%20and%20Atticus https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=273196
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