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Prascend - Can I grind it, or must it stay whole?

Julie Thomas
 

Just when I thought we were making progress with the IR and I was getting excited, both of my horses were diagnosed last week with PPID.  {heavy sigh}  I have ordered the Prascend, but it isn't here yet.  I was planning to grind it with the coffee grinder (like i do with the Metformin) and add it to the supplement mix.  Reading some of the posts in Topic #242464, it appears that may not be an acceptable way to feed it?  Does it have to be given in its whole/solid form to be effective?

I'm really struggling with the PPID diagnosis.  Three years ago I bought these two lovely, perfectly healthy horses - my first real exposure to horses.  Within a year, the mini was IR - a condition I had never heard of and had no idea I could cause.  Thanks to this group I felt like we were making progress.  Then BAM, the PPID diagnosis in both horses.  My vet keeps saying that I didn't "cause" this, but I can't help but wonder how in the world two healthy horses ended up with PPID while in my care.  It seems like there must be a connection to something I'm doing wrong.  I breaks my heart to think I've done this to them.  :(
--
- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .

celestinefarm
 

Julie, your vet is correct, you didn't cause this. You uncovered it. Thank heavens you did or your kids would have gone a lot longer undiagnosed and untreated. No one is born with all the knowledge needed to care for horses. 

I've had horses for over 50 years now( good lord that's a scary thought) . PPID has been recognized for decades formally in vet circles, but the average person knew little about it. About 30 years ago, I boarded my horse at a barn that had a thoroughbred with odd looking plastic/metal shoes nailed on backwards on long toed weird looking feet, and was thin , like rescue horse thin. He had a long shaggy coat that hung in furls. I finally asked the owner, who occasionally came out to the barn to groom and walk horse around what was wrong with him.( He had been her event horse ten years earlier). She said he had "Cushings disease", which I had never heard of and she said there was no treatment except some medication she couldn't afford( I don't know what that would have been). And so we just assumed every day we would hear that this horse had dropped dead in his stall from this bizarre disease.  Eventually the owner moved out of state and told the barn owners to do whatever they thought was best for the horse, they ended up putting him down eventually.

My point is that "Cushings disease" PPID, has been in the horse population probably forever. Horses live longer today because they are not being driven or ridden until they can't and are then put down, or are lost to other afflictions such as colic. We are able to diagnose PPID much earlier today, whereas in years past, PPID symptoms would have been ascribed to some other aging process, etc.  What has happened is that your "healthy" horses who were in the early stages of PPID were diagnosed early, when treating them results in stopping other disease processes fueled by the dysregulation of hormones from PPID.

IR is not an actual disease, it is a metabolic type. I have a slower type of metabolism, it's hard for me to lose weight unless I really restrict carbs. I"m not unhealthy or diseased, it's just my type.  Once you recognized your mini's IR type, you can correct his feeding and lifestyle to better suit his type. The feed companies here in the USA are big business, with big advertising budgets, and IMO, contribute to the insulin issues in many of our horses. LIke commercial dog food, horse owners in the USA are highly conditioned to believe their horses MUST be fed "balanced' commercial feed out of a bag. One of the goals here at ECIR is to help people understand what horses actually need to live well and what they don't. Dr. Kellon's NRC course's goal is to provide scientific and real world experience regarding feeding horses, and I can't emphasize enough how valuable and educational that course is. 

http://drkellon.com/coursedescriptions/nrcplus.html


Regarding the Prascend, don't grind it. It comes in a tablet the length of a grain of rice and about two grains wide. It's really small. It is scored across the middle so you can break it in two. You want to make sure both horses receive their prascend in full, so follow the many suggestions on here on how to give Prascend or compounded pergolide to your horses. You should be able to find a way for them to ingest the Prascend either in an acceptable treat, a small amount of carrier, or if necessary, dilute it in water and syringe it in.  Let us know if you have problems getting it in them and the collective experience here will get you through it.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Julie,

Your vet is correct. You didn't cause the PPID - or Sparky's IR.

Considering Ike's glucose and insulin readings September 2018, and the way they dropped like a stone after that, his ACTH last year was likely a false negative.

The dosage of pergolide is so tiny you don't want to grind it or you will likely lose a significant amount. Prascend dissolves easily in water so you can use a small syringe to give it. Take out the plunger, add water and the pill, put the plunger in while holding off the tip. When you give it, include a little air at the back of the syringe to flush out the tip. There are tons of other suggestions for giving it in the posts.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Julie,

You absolutely didn't cause this.
And here's a thought to go along with what others have said. And you may agree,as time goes on and you become more and more aware of little signs.

You said that 3 years ago ,when you made your purchases , you were new to horses.
They were 2 lovely, perfectly healthy horses.
But Ike and Sparky may well have been showing signs of things to come,which even your vet was not familiar with. And maybe the time of year was a 'good' season for them, as opposed to the  seasonal rise time of year, so signs would be subtle.
I don't imagine you would have checked ACTH during your purchase exam, if they seemed fine, so it could have been a clue. But who does that?
I could go on, but you get my drift.

By the way, this group does not allow its members to beat themselves up. I'm sure I saw that in our Mission Statement.  :-)


--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 

Bonnie
 

Hi Julie, RE struggling with the PPID diagnosis, I was in that state some years ago. New to horses, I got my pony at age 8, discovered he was IR the following year. At 12, he was diagnosed with PPID and my heart sank. Management of IR had been a learning curve, but I thought everything was under control, then WHAM, the new diagnosis.This was a real grieving process. What was the future for Lad? Phrases like "quality of life" came to mind.
Now he is 21 and when I see him come cantering up the hill when called, bright eyed and eager for anything, I bless this group for its information and support it provides.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 

Pat Gauvreau
 

Julie
You can go to any drug store and buy a pill crusher. They cost only a few dollars and easy to crush Prascend in a pill crusher and none is lost. If any powder sticks you can use a toothpick to loosen it off. I would NEVER use a coffee grinder for such a tiny pill. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Lorna Cane
 

Doesn't the company say not to crush Prascend?

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes, they recommend not crushing it which I think is just out of an abundance of caution about human exposure.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Jodie Jensen
 

Jodie Jensen
 

Oops, that sent without a message. Sorry. 

Julie, I’m still up in your neck of the woods every few weeks if you want to meet for support. I’m happy to share tips or just give moral support. 
--
Jodie, Copper, Emmy and Gang

WA 2007

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodie%20and%20Copper%20-%20Emmy/Copper

 

Julie Thomas
 

I'd love to hook up, Jodie!  Let me know what/when works for you (cell 360-689-4675; email julie.thomas344@...).  Text is usually the quickest way to catch me.  Thank you SO much!!  :)
--
- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Julie,

In my herd of 9, there were 7 PPID/IR horses/donkey/mule.

You must think I'm an unspeakably horrible person. If you caused your horses to become PPID/IR, then I surely did mine, too.

See how unrealistic that sounds ?

You can't take the blame. But you can definitely help them to live long, happy and healthy lives.

 

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002


 

Julie Thomas
 

Thank you Lorna.  Being new to horses and have 100% of my tiny herd end up with PPID/IR just seemed like too much to be coincidence.  I deeply appreciate all the support and kind words from this group that got me over the hump.  I've put on my big girl boots and I'm charging forward finding solutions.  You folks ROCK!  Thank you!!!  :)
--
- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .

Lorna Cane
 

Yay, Julie!
Now you're talking!!

Sh-hhhhhh. This won't be the only hump. Ask anyone here. (Never mind.)
But each one somehow makes us stronger.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

--

Lorna Cane
Ontario, Canada
2002