Purina Equine Sr. - My Brain Hurts...


Liz <HOSSCRAZY@...>
 

One of the resources on this list refered me to someone else, who
said that Purina makes a feed that is great for IR/laminitic horses.
So I contacted Purina, asking an open ended question: Do you make a
feed that is low is sugar and appropriate for Cushings/IR horses with
laminitis. Here's the response:

"Our Equine Senior has worked the best for the Cushing's
horse. It is very low in starch (18.1%), so works well for the horse
who has problems with blood glucose regulation. This product also
addresses the problem of laminitis/founder, as it is extremely easy
to digest & gives you complete control over their diet."

My brain hurts...I thought Equine Senior was BAD for my horse?! Am I
misunderstanding something?

Also, What about Triple Crown Lite - is that okay?

Liz R.


duffynook22@...
 

Hi -  I am having the same problem with my pony and the Purina Equine Senior - since my pony keeps choking on the ODTB cubes, my vet said to switch him over to the Equine Senior and cut out the cubes since the Equine Senior is a complete feed - I just read on here that it says Purina Equine Senior is bad for the IR horse, so I don't know what to do now - should I believe and do what the vet is telling me? I see people on here have had their horse have episodes of laminitis after having the Purina Equine Senior - any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks!
--
Nancy Gaiser-NY-2021


Jennifer Green
 

I thought the target for starch was 4% or less. Hmm 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Maxine McArthur
 

Nancy, you'll be sent a welcome message soon with lots of information including on our recommended diet, which does not contain any Purina feeds as they are unsuitable for PPID/IR equines. The message below is an old one, so I'm not sure what the current formula of Equine Senior contains, but 18% starch would blow the feet off our compromised horses--please don't feed it. 
Are you soaking the cubes? Some horses like them mushy, some like them crumbly, you may have to experiment to find what works best. 

There is a great summary of our dietary recommendations here: https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diet.php

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


celestinefarm
 

Liz and Nancy,
Purina Senior is way too high in sugar and starch for an IR horse. We aim for starch to be at or below 4%.Here is Purina's own promotional materials regarding Equine Senior. Equine Senior® Complete Horse Feed | Purina (purinamills.com) 
Starch is at 12% and sugar is at 7% for a total of 19% sugar and starch.. Purina is notorious for not putting their ingredient list online for individual feeds so I don't know what is in it that is driving the starch that high, but it is totally inappropriate for IR horses. 
The response they sent you is pure BS. 

In the files section is the list of feeds that ECIR is comfortable recommending. Stabul 1 can be used as a complete feed. Nancy, you can also use timothy pellets with a balancer added. Any equine prone to choke will have to eat soaked feed. I"m surprised your pony is choking on the TB cubes. They should be thoroughly soaked so that they are a mush. If he is still gobbling and choking on them , put some rocks in his feed tube and feed more frequently..


Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


 

Liz,
I fed my IR the ODTB cubes Initially  and I used a large bucket with a tight fitting lid from Tractor Supply. I put the cubes into the bucket and poured HOT water over the cubes, just enough to cover the cubes. The cubes will swell and soften, they will completely crumble apart as long as you soak them them ahead of time. I would soak the dinner feed in the AM and keep the lid on tight. The AM feed is set up to soak over night. 

Liz, please finish creating your signature by adding you year/month of joining and your general location (county and state is good). Having your location in your signature can be helpful because you may find other members who live in your own area.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album Deceased


Maxine McArthur
 
Edited

Nancy, here is the link to your welcome message (ironically, I sent it to you originally lol): https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/266375
The 'Diet" section explains why we recommend keeping ESC + starch under 10% and starch ideally under 4% or as low as possible. 
There are a number of messages on that thread regarding people's experiences with feeding the ODTB cubes also. 

Have you been able to upload a case history for your pony yet? That might help us brainstorm his feed with you. Please let us know if you are stuck anywhere in the case history creation process.

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


duffynook22@...
 


Hi - Thanks for the information - my pony has had trouble swallowing the ODTB cubes for over a year now - the cubes used to be much harder and would turn into a pea soup consistency - spoke to Aurelio about this and he said that people were complaining that the cubes were too hard so they made them softer and easy to break apart - unfortunately for my pony, the harder ones turned into the pea soup consistency and these new ones don't - I'm surprised that no one else has noticed that the cubes are not hard which is probably better for them, but not for my pony.  Heather on this board knew what I was talking about regarding the harder cubes and the way they would turn into pea soup and my pony could actually drink them.   I am probably going to cut out the Senior and go back to giving him the Semican Timothy Pellets and adding them to the ODTB cubes as the pellets make the cubes softer and more like the pea soup consistency that my pony could eat.

Duffy, my pony is 35 years old now and so a lot of people on this board probably don't have the issues that I have regarding the cubes and your horses/ponies can still chew them and swallow them with no problem.  

Regarding the Purina Equine Senior, I am wondering why more vets are not aware of the dangers of the Equine Senior for IR horses and why they keep recommending it for Cushings/IR horses.

Thanks again for your help -
 
Hope everyone has a good day!
Nancy Gaiser-NY-2021


celestinefarm
 

Nancy, 
There are a lot of vet schools that have nutrition support via Purina.  The students go through their vet education being lectured, taught, and then using in the clinic Purina products.  So they are familiar with Purina and truthfully , indoctrinated that Purina is the best. It's great marketing strategy by Purina. Also, equine nutrition is not a major component of vet education in school as there are so many things to learn.  It's why the continuing education offered by ECIR next month is important for vets to attend. I can tell you as a retired health care provider, continuing education is extremely important because of advancement of knowledge. You also have to be able to let go of what you learned and accept that it was what we knew at the time, but is not what is true today. That is hard for some to do , because they want to defend what they always knew as correct, not wrong.

I took a equine nutrition class years ago at a community college that was taught by my then veterinarian. He opened the class by telling us that 50% of what he was going to say was correct and 50% wasn't, and unfortunately , he didn't know which 50% was which. His point was that we should always be looking for change and corrections as knowledge increases.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Lorna Cane
 

Nancy,I've lost most of my boys now,but we were together through their 30's and 40's. I used to feed the ODTBC all the time.Most of the boys could still eat them dry ,easily. I was always happy not to deal with the rock-hard ones,but used to take the hammer to them. My 47-year-old pony mule liked his cubes soupy sometimes.I never had trouble making soup out of them for him,so am not sure why yours won't do that.
Just FWIW.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Bonnie
 

Hi Nancy, are you feeding the cubes dry?

--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


 

Nancy, I’ve been thinking about this a bit and thought I had replied but don’t see it.  There have been a few times in the heat this summer that I wanted to get extra water into my mini.  I soaked cubes in lots of water.  The result didn’t look like pea soup but it was very runny and he needed to drink it.  He licked up what was left in the bottom of the dish as there was nothing he could get his mouth around.  I’m not sure what the soaked (soft) cubes look like for you but is it possible adding more water would do the trick?
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Dinky, my 34yo mini stallion, literally has no teeth and had been prone to choke for many years - predating the loss of the teeth. He gets fed rinsed Speedibeet mixed with soaked Stabul 1 added to soaked ODTBC and has no problem swallowing it. He's fed this mix 4x/day. HE HATES soupy food, but by the time he has finished mouthing his food, it's so additionally soaked with saliva that it is almost soupy.

All the cubes are the softer ones, which fluff up apart with only a hint of water without becoming mush. I can then finish breaking apart any remaining hidden chunks easily with my hands.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Cindy Giovanetti
 

I don’t understand the pea soup illustration either.  When I soak the cubes, they fluff up like fresh grass.  My horses love them wet or dry.

 

Cindy

 

 


--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Cindy M
 

IME, the consistency of soaked cubes depends on the amount of water added. "Ideal" consistency will depend on what your horse likes and is able to consume.

If you add just enough water to cover the dry cubes, they will absorb the water, "fluff up," as Cindy G said, but still look like cubes. If you add enough water that the cubes are floating just a little, right after adding the water, the cubes will be softer and more like a "mash." (For those old enough to remember the days of bran mash.) I can stir the "mash," with a spoon. I can add powdered ingredients. Like Spirulina, Chondroitin Sulfate, Amino Acids, Iodized table salt., ground flax seed. And I can mix it into the mash

If you add enough water that it is twice the volume of the dry cubes, it WILL become like pea soup. LOTS of liquid, green, and the horse will need to "drink it," rather than grab mouthfuls and chew.

Our 30 year old PPID horse (with limited history of choke) now needs his soaked cubes to be the consistency of a mash. Earlier he was fine with moistened cubes that still held their form but were not dry.
--
Cindy Martin
Nov 2009
Lincoln, AR
Scout Case History


gypsylassie
 

Hi Nancy, I think I might have 7 bags of the 2019 bags of ODTBCs.  I used to have to buy them by the pallet.  I don't feed very much and,   I store them as I do hay, so they have been fine so far.    I'm in N IL so not close to you at all.   If you have friends or family that travel between N Y and IL, we might be able to connect.  I can send Aurelio the numbers on my bags to see if they are indeed 2019 cubes.  I can also send you a baggie of cubes to try if you have anyway to get the bags to NY.   If we can work something out, I will open the bags before I send them to check for freshness and mold.  
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


duffynook22@...
 

To All -

Thank you very much for all the information - just to make it more clear - the cubes that were hard from OD a couple of years ago were very hard and when soaked, they turned into that pea soup consistency - maybe I shouldn't have said pea soup consistency - was trying to find something yesterday that resembled the way they looked and found photos of (don't laugh) cake mixes that had been blended and if you know what cake mixes look like when they are blended, that's the way these cubes looked - there were no bits of hay in them and they were of a creamy smooth consistency as in a cake mix blend before it's put in the oven -

My pony now drinks all the liquid around these newer shredded and soaked cubes from OD and is then left with the coarse hay pieces which he has trouble swallowing.  No amount of water or soaking time will matter because the hay is still there and is still coarse for him.

I saw a post on here from a while ago from someone who said that her horse had a sore throat and couldn't eat forage of any kind as he had choked on something and his throat was still sore - I feel that this is the problem with my pony - from choking a few times, I believe his throat has been irritated by it and so the coarseness of the cubes irritates his throat as our throats would feel if we tried to eat when we had a sore throat - Also, I did notice though that at the times when I've given him Banamine if he is a little arthritic or sore, he can eat these coarse cubes with no problem at all - so the Banamine takes away the pain in his throat

I've been looking into the Standlee Timothy Alfalfa haycubes (don't know the NSC numbers for them though) for him as there is Bentonite added which will make the cubes hard and therefore like the "cake mix" consistency that he had before - don't know if Alfalfa makes them that consistency but what I've read about binders, they make the cubes a certain consistency and hard which is okay with me as long as they turn out to be that smooth cake mix consistency.

Will let you know what happens - 
--
Nancy Gaiser-NY-2021


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nancy,

How long are you soaking the cubes? Hot or cold water? Hay pieces will soak up quite a bit of water and become soft but it takes a while.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


ferne fedeli
 

I figure if Ontario Dehy started making those rocks (I called them Tootsie Rolls) again we would be after them with hachets or something!!!  Ha.  I LOVE the soft cubes!!!
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Bonnie
 

I find them a little too crumbly for carrying in my pockets as treats. Must remember to turn pockets inside out before putting things in the laundry! But nothing beats the ease of preparation for  very satisfying "mash".
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008