Topics

Question About Pergolide In A Treat


Lynn
 

I have a dumb question. I find myself once again at a crossroad with pilling my "pill" of a horse. We have gone through too many methods to count. (Empty large peanut shells, Beet-e-Bites Equipockets, empty pea pods, ECIR cookies, Stabul 1 treats..you get the picture). Our caregiver has always fed him the pill in or with the treat of the moment by hand in the morning before feeding (and she has always done a plain treat first, then the one with the pill, then another plain one). The treat that has lasted the longest (over a year) is Uckele's Cherry Vanilla. Now he has decided they are poison. Our caregiver even fed everyone else in the barn hay and grain first in front of him THEN fed him his pill which he grumpily took. That worked for about a week before he insisted she give him his hay - then he would take the treat/pill. Now he won't take anything from her. (We've even tried different people giving it to him). The barn owner does not want to syringe the dose in due to the extra time etc. (her words). I don't want the dose laid on top of his food/supplements. He does love the safe dehydrated Ontario Timothy pellets. If I put a hole in one, put the capsule in there, make up about 5 or 6 of those at a time and put them in a ziplock baggy would that cause the pergolide capsule to degrade in any way? (Sigh....I get so tired.......)
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


lamarleau@...
 

Been through this with my old boy. I had put it in a small piece of carrot. No other way.
--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


ferne fedeli
 

Francine, my horse is named Magic too!  Hmmm.  Anyway, I went through every recommended treat, method, etc. etc. trying to get my Magic to take his Pergolide too for at least a year or so.  He would be fine with something for about a couple of months and then refuse to take it.  Someone said that they used a piece of carrot and so I tried that and it has worked for years.  I give the other guys a small piece of carrot or two also and they all look forward to getting their little carrot piece (I'm convinced he just thinks he is getting a carrot treat and doesn't realize the pill is in there!)
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


 

Yeah, my guy took his embedded in a carrot for years.

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


 

My vet uses a fig Newton to get his horse to take his Pergolide.  The Newtons come in different flavors and I don't think he uses a whole cookie.  I used a piece of wheat bread divided in fourths.  Just a few suggestions.  
--
Jean and Amber (over the bridge)

Nikki and Buster too

South Carolina

August 2004

NRCPlus 0412; CIR 0813, 1211; NAT 0612

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gloria%20and%20Amber


Denise
 

I use to feed Ben his Previcox in a small slice of carrot, but, I was afraid that was not good because of founder..I also wondered if a small piece of carrot would be ok every 3 days..hmmmm
--







https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=denise+and+ben
Denise & Ben , NB Canada Joined 2020 !!!!


Cindy M
 

Lynn, 
I've got 2 horses getting Prascend. We've been through all kinds of tactics. They work for a while, then they do not.

A friend confided in me that she "tasted" the pills and found them very bitter.

Most recently, I was tucking their tablets into empty gelatin capsules. You can buy those online, or in health food stores/markets.  (Before Prascend, compounded pergolide came in those capsules. I never had a problem administering it that way....) 

When they began to refuse the gelatin caps, I sprinkled a little Stevia into the capsule with the tablets, hoping that might offset any bitterness they experienced if they chewed the capsule rather than swallowing it.

Two months later, they refused the capsules + stevia.

NOW, I am dissolving the capsules in a little water (10 ml) inside a dose syringe and squirting liquid Stevia (available in the baking section of most supermarkets) and syringing the liquid directly in their mouths. Let's hope this method works for a while!!

--
Cindy Martin
Nov 2009
Lincoln, AR
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20M%20and%20Grace%20-%20Burley%20-%20Reuban%20-%20Scout


riggslippert@...
 

Hello,

One of my PPID horses absolutely loves taking his pergolide in small (~ 2 teaspoons) homemade treats consisting of natural peanut butter (Kirkland brand, no added sugar) and Triple Crown ground flax (about 1 part peanut butter to 4 parts flax by volume).  I use a silicone mold to make them and store them in the freezer.  They are moist, but not too sticky, and very aromatic.
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Aha899@...
 

I have been putting the Prascend tablet in a small piece of apple for a couple of months. Seems to work thus far. Carrots do not work well  as if they chew the carrot they are likely to also chew and taste the bitterness of pill. 
--
AnnG in CA 2020


 

Hello AnnG!
As a new member you need our New Member post. Usually we catch the very first post from a new member and reply with the information that you need immediately. Your first post got overlooked so I am going to attach the info you need here and in a stand alone post. Below you will find an explanation of what we offer each new member and what steps we ask you to take as a new member. 

You didn't ask any questions or assistance for a specific issue with your horse. I am going to create a new message just to get you started. Please look for a message with your name in the subject line.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Bonnie
 

I am presently using a small piece of carrot drilled out with a slim knife to feed a compounded pergolide capsule. I place it on top of 4 ODBC that have been fluffed up with warm water. I use "The Wonderful Treat Bowl" to serve this and basically anything put in this bowl will be accepted. I hold it under the pony's chin in case the pill gets dropped. Usually carrot and pill are scooped up in a mouthful of cube fluff. I noticed it takes about 4 chewing motions to move the carrot up between his back teeth and know we have succeeded when I hear the carrot crunch.
Lad has been conditioned to accept things in this special bowl as I randomly take him a surprise treat in it. He comes running.
However I know that on average every six weeks I will have to find a different pill treat. You can go back and work your way through the list again after time passes so don't give up forever if, for instance, tomorrow your boy does not want the thing he loved today.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Lynn
 

Hello All! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's posts and (forgive me) I feel better knowing it's not just my boy. Well my caregiver informed me today she hit on a solution so simple (and yet elegant) I don't know why I didn't think of it.  Relevante loves his hay above all else. So she made a little hay ball with the capsule in the middle and he gobbled it up from her hand faster than you can say "pill."  So we'll see how long this lasts! LOL
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Karen Anderson
 

Hi Lynn:  I am a recent joiner of this group and I also have struggled to find any food or treat that my finicky Fhinland would accept with a Prascend tablet in it. Not even carrots! Until recently, when the trainer at our barn said, "Why don't you scratch off the flowery part of the alfalfa (from the top of the bale)?"  He gobbles it up. . .  so far, so good!
--
Karen A in Maryland 2020


celestinefarm
 

I just went through this again with Juniper. I have exhausted every means of getting a Prascend tablet in her, some of which resulted in continuing to refuse the treat, or food that no longer has a pill in it.  So I am syringing it in with water. She is doing fine with that. If anyone finds they need to syringe it in, but are concerned about the time it takes, I found that tablets dissolve in warm water in the syringe in less than sixty seconds.  She is good about syringing in , so it takes another ten seconds to syringe in the warm water. It's not like a paste wormer or medication that is slow to come out of the tube and they have to try to swallow thick paste. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Sherry Morse
 

As far as syringing - I've said before it's the only way I do medications due to my picky eaters.  For the 10 seconds or so it takes to fill the syringe and the 10 seconds to administer it, plus the x number of second walk to the stall (by which time the pill has melted) I find it's a lot less time and stress than trying to figure out what the horse will eat the pill in.  I do a lot of farm sitting and it takes me longer to cut the end off a carrot and carve a hole out for the pill and then insert the pill and put the carrot piece back than it does to get a syringe ready (and I still have to walk to the horse and get them to eat the carrot). 



Candice Piraino
 
Edited

Hi Karen!

Since this is your first post, I want to provide to you our welcome message! Please know that some metabolic horses are VERY sensitive to alfalfa and can get very sick and founder from it. Even carrots have a ton of sugar and are not to be given, even as treats especially during a laminitis event. There are other safe versions of treats that can be given like peanut shells, or even the peels of a carrot- just not the mass substance of a carrot. Its more habit for us humans to think our horses NEED treats and the sizes and amounts we share with them. 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.

--

Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Lynn
 

I agree with you Sherry but my barn owner just doesn't want to syringe ..I even offered to make up the syringes..(because I believe someone here said you could make up five at time - but I could be crazy)...They would have to halter Relevante to do it and she says he runs from the halter because he knows it's pill time. You are talking about an equine who carefully picked out the Vitamin E capsules from his Stabul 1/supplements and carefully placed them on the ledge of his stall wall in between the metal bars.  Hopefully the "hay balls" will work for a while at least while I gather strength...LOL
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω