Topics

River - Laminitis/Founder


anna.h.pierce@...
 

Hello, 

His front hooves fit the bill for founder, but he doesn't appear lame and his toe isn't separated. We've controlled his diet and put him on pergolide (recently increased to 2mg, but don't know if that's helping yet). He'll be getting x-rays for his front feet this week. We're thinking there is something else going on contributing to his hoof issues. High iron? Lyme disease? 

We've tried to control for environmental/diet variables, but his hooves continue to get worse. 

Thank you, 
Anna 
--
Anna Pierce
Austin, TX 
2020
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anna%20and%20River
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=256537


Sherry Morse
 






anna.h.pierce@...
 

Hello! 
 
Thank you for the reply! 
 
- Those were the pics I had available, and I'll be out where he's staying this weekend, and will get those up asap. 
 
- My ferrier is hesitant to take off more toe because of how far under-run his heels are. She's been very involved and suggested I start the case history here. 

- His winter coat is coming in and is hiding some of his ribs. He's right on the verge of "normal," and we're really happy with his weight gain since we started the pergolide. His weight was estimated by the vet at 925lbs in May, (I don't know what method), and I roughly estimated that he's around 960 with the weight he's put on in the past few months. I don't know his ideal weight, and I'm happy to change it in the case history based on your experience. 
 
- Two different people are feeding him right now AM/PM (we're in a transition, so it's not as streamline as we'd like - we're working on it). The alfalfa pellets are soaked. He's not digesting hay properly, (we think it may be his teeth and December is the earliest we can get a dentist out) and is getting 30 lbs of hay/day. I will look at the diet recommendations and talk with the people feeding him to make adjustments. 

Thank you, 
Anna 
--
Anna Pierce
Austin, TX 
2020
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anna%20and%20River
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=256537


anna.h.pierce@...
 

Also, the timothy cubes are the ones you recommended. 
--
Anna Pierce
Austin, TX 
2020
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anna%20and%20River
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=256537


lmittler@...
 

Hello,

I am River’s trimmer and, as Anna said, I encouraged her to join so we can figure out if we have something as simple as changing River’s diet and ensuring his ACTH is under control or if something more complex is going on. I want to start by giving Anna and Natalie (who helps care for River and may chime in here) huge, virtual pats on the back! From the moment I spotted major hoof changes with River and his pasture mate and BFF, Bow (owned by Natalie) on May 8, Anna and Natalie dry-lotted them, put them in Cloud boots, called the vet to have blood drawn for PPID testing and got the boys medicated asap when their tests came back positive. They, no doubt, saved the boys from further complications at that time. Great job, ladies!! I will reference Natalie’s horses in this post because there are a few significant “things” I want to mention in regards to River. I’m hoping Natalie will start a case history on Bow soon! 

River’s hooves are throwing me for a loop. I’ve never seen founder take place in front of my eyes but River’s hooves appear to be melting off his legs.... I don’t know how else to describe it. I’ve sent his hoof pic comparisons to a ton of trimmer friends and posted them on three private FB barefoot trimmer groups and only two people responded. One said she’s seen something similar once in her 13 years trimming and the other suspected uncontrolled ACTH, which we confirmed with bloodwork. The pictures in the collage Anna posted were taken from the same angle with the phone parallel to the solar plane of the hoof. The noticeable distortion began no earlier than August 1st. I did not do a good job of documenting River’s hooves over the 13 months I’ve trimmed him but I know August 1 was when I suspected something unusual was going on. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to give him a great trim that evening because a caretaker who didn’t know I was coming to trim that day treated his hooves with a tincture of iodine concoction (I think that’s what she said) so they were covered in white, sticky goop, for lack of a better term, and it was raining that night. There are trees in River’s paddock but no shelter to protect the trimmer from the rain (LOL!) so I did what I could at that time. I noticed his hooves were a little more elongated than normal but again, given the circumstances and the fact that his hooves had been improving, I didn’t dwell on it. His next trim wasn’t until September 21 due to scheduling conflicts and when I saw his hooves, it was apparent something was going on. Anna, Natalie and I discussed teeth, retesting ACTH, diet....everything I could think that could be contributing. I don’t remember if any changes were made at that time or not but Anna did have the vet out to redraw blood. When I saw River’s feet on October 26, I threw the code red flag! Two vets stated that both River and Bow’s bloodwork was “normal” but I knew to ask for the actual numbers, which confirmed that both boys were still uncontrolled and River’s insulin was definitely not normal. I spoke to Fran Metzger, my client and dear friend who is responsible for my head-first dive into ECIR over a year ago. (Prior to Fran, I followed ECIR and recommended the diet to clients regularly, but she is the reason I am so passionate about IR and PPID today!) Fran suggested a dose increase, which I completely agreed with, so Anna increased River’s Prascend to 2mg per day on November 4. 

A few other things I want to note:

1) While River isn’t visually lame, he has become increasing harder to trim with each visit because he’s agitated, painful (I’m sure) and just isn’t himself. He can’t hold his feet up long and constantly wants to walk away... not like him at all. He was Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky before all of this started in May and for a few trims after but he’s definitely having a much harder time now.

2) He wore his Cloud boots for several months following the May episode. I’m not sure when he stopped wearing them or if that is significant at all but I’m expecting someone to ask so I wanted to include it. Lol!

3) The more I analyze the situation, the more significant I think this is... River moved, along with all of Natalie’s horses, to a new place between his trim on February 29 and March 28. He went from living in deep sand to hard ground and we had a lot of rain at that time. At his sandy place, there really wasn’t much foliage for him to munch on that could get him into IR trouble but his new place has a little bit of grass, which I suspect led to his flare-up. I’m sure the stress of moving played a role as well, as it would for any horse who moves. The part I haven’t been able to explain post-move is why Natalie’s horse’s feet (all 4 horses) have completely “fallen apart” as well. I use that term loosely but none have truly fallen apart as River’s have. All 5 horses, River included, are extremely thrushy, have horrible white line separation and are not themselves. Could it be the little bit of grass and weeds are affecting all 5 horses or is it something else? They changed hay sources as well. Natalie feeds Vermont Blend with Stabul 1, salt and free choice hay. The sharp decline in everyone’s feet has me wondering if iron is an issue at the new place?

I’m babbling so I’m going to sign-off now. I just wanted to add a few thoughts that might help us figure out what is going on. I’m looking forward to hearing from everyone! Thank you all in advance.
--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for adding your observations and clarifications. It's always helpful to have these types of details.

I agree with you that the move may be significant. Has the hay that is now being fed tested? From the rusty colors in River's coat/mane; your observations of thrush/white line separation; and their attitude changes, it appears that mineral balancing needs to be tightened up, so an off-the-shelf supplement may not be able to do the job adequately for him (them). It's also possible there is some type of issue in the soil and/or water at the new location that is contributing to the problems you are seeing. Would it be possible to have the water analyzed?

I also agree that he sounds like he is uncomfortable. In my area, Lyme would top the head of my list to rule out for non-specific symptoms like the ones you mention.

The change in terrain would affect the wear patterns you saw, as sand is more abrasive and drying. It is also more conformable, so the concavity of the hooves would change and tend to become somewhat flatter when on the more solid surface. Because the feet likely aren't wearing away as much, trim cycles may need to be tweaked, as well as what you need to do at each trim.

Regarding his trim, his toes are really getting enormously out ahead of where they need to be. This can start gradually but it will take on a life of it's own and become like the proverbial snowball rolling downhill. His heels are running more forward, again something that gathers speed and force when left unchecked. Every time he lands on those underrun heels, the impact drives the heel a bit more solidly forward. Unless you can mitigate the way the forces get distributed, they will continually reinforce the problem. The two issues combine to keep elongating and dragging his hoof capsules ever further out from under their correct position under the center of the bony column.

It would be really helpful to see a full set of hoof photos for River, which I think Anna is already working on getting for us.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 Hi Lisa,

I'd like to address this part:

On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 10:26 AM, <lmittler@...> wrote:
The part I haven’t been able to explain post-move is why Natalie’s horse’s feet (all 4 horses) have completely “fallen apart” as well. I use that term loosely but none have truly fallen apart as River’s have. All 5 horses, River included, are extremely thrushy, have horrible white line separation and are not themselves. Could it be the little bit of grass and weeds are affecting all 5 horses or is it something else? They changed hay sources as well. Natalie feeds Vermont Blend with Stabul 1, salt and free choice hay. The sharp decline in everyone’s feet has me wondering if iron is an issue at the new place?
EMS/PPID/grass/sugar is not the root of all evil with hoof issues. Insulin is the bottom line for there to be even a possibility with those factors and insulin is only linked to laminitis. There is NO supplement that will be a good match for each and every hay/diet. Some are less likely to make things worse but NONE are always going to get the job done. Without hay analysis, it's just a guess.  Iron doesn't have to be the key with diet issues either. It could be excess manganese, copper and/or zinc deficiencies and antagonists not being adequately corrected, nitrate, major mineral imbalances, protein or amino acid deficiencies, other toxic mineral intakes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Frances C.
 

So all of Natalie horses were moved between Feb. and March. River;s hoof problem was noticed on May 7th. 6 or 7 weeks later. All the horses seem to be affected. I would suspect that there is "something" (maybe toxic) about the new place contributing to the problem and just not the difference in footing.. Are there other horses on the property? Has there been any other horses on the property previously? What kind of problems have been seen on this particular property with horses in the past? These are some of the questions I would be asking.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


lmittler@...
 

Thank you all for your replies.

The hay has not been tested because they were trying to find a steady source. Many farmers have sold out of hay until next Spring. I just tested hay for another client that I’m hoping will work for Natalie and Anna since the source is fairly close to them. I should get that back from Equi-Analytical in the next week or so. 

Lavinia, we can definitely test the water... great idea! Thank you for all the other info as well. 

Dr. Kellon, thank you! Kathleen is working on a report on hay in our area based on everything I’ve sampled over the last year. I’m anxious to see her report. I know we’re high in iron (like everyone else) and we seem to be high in manganese as well. 

Frances, thank you for weighing in. The horse’s live at a boarding facility but I don’t trim any other horses there so I don’t know what the condition of other horse’s feet are. I would love to pick up a few random feet to look but that hasn’t happened yet! Lol! One of my clients just moved her horse to this facility so I’m wondering if his feet will fall apart as well. We shall see. 

--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019


 


-- are there any Black Walnut trees on the property? They are toxic to even stand beneath for horses 
MARY 
Reno Nv
12-19

 


lmittler@...
 

I'm not sure about Black Walnut trees, Anna would have to answer that question.

The vet was out yesterday to take radiographs. Anna will post them when she is able. The vet Anna used is one I'm working hard on educating about the ECIR group, IR, PPID and balancing diets. He is very receptive, which is awesome and encouraging!! However, I still need to teach him how to take proper hoof radiographs! LOL! We'll get there! You'll see how hard the rads are for me to decipher when they're uploaded. River obviously has a ton of toe that needs to come off, however, I don't think it's as cut and dry as I would like for it to be. I'll post more thoughts and observations once they are posted so we can decide together what I should remove from each hoof as I am trimming him this Sunday. 
--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Lisa,

I noticed that the latest rads have been posted:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=256537

Agree, there's definitely room for improvement in the rad technique. Check out this link for some suggestions for getting rads done:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1571

Maybe some of those points will help when you are working with the vet.

What does show up is that the sole depth is barely adequate, heels are underrun, toes are definitely way ahead of where they need to be. There's high ringbone on both, slight amount of bony column rotation on the RF.

Without a full set of actual hoof photos, I can only make a few general suggestions for the trim: definitely back the toes up so they are horizontally shorter but don't touch anything on the sole/bottom in the remainder of the foot.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


lmittler@...
 

Thank you so much, Lavinia.

Anna has tried to upload River’s hoof pics several times with no success. She’s not sure why she’s having trouble since she uploaded the other pics just fine.

I am trimming him this afternoon so I’ll back his toes and take updated pictures. 


--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

I see that Anna uploaded some photos yesterday, as well as the rads a couple of days before that. Weird that she can't upload other photos.

If you end up having a problem adding photos to his album, please let me know so we can figure out why that is happening. While it's a problem, you can send them directly to me to upload, if needed.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR