Date
1 - 20 of 21
Rosa - 18 year old POA winter laminitis help needed - Nothing is Working
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
Rosa is not doing well. We found her down this morning and not sure how long she was not able to stand. When she got up, she could barely move.
We took her off Bute on 3/11. She has been more crippled since that day. She's on Metformin, Jag, Thyro - L (weaning off), Prascend - all following the protocol of the group We're waiting for Devil's Claw to arrive. We / Rosa needs more help. Her physical state is very similar to a horse we had to leg go of in October due to Laminitis. It's horrible to witness her decline. We get the sense that she is done fighting. Thoughts? -- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Judy, Has her trim been addressed at all? Is she in boots? If she has abscesses mobilizing (a distinct possibility) that could explain why she doesn't want to move right now as those are often more painful than the actual laminitis event. Did you wean her off the bute or stop it cold turkey. If you stopped it without weaning her off that also could explain why she's not happy right now.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
Yes, trim has been addressed. Yes, she's in boots. Yes, maybe abscess. Bute was d/c on 3/11 as it was advised that it does nothing for Laminitis. We were under the impression from the group, that Bute could be stopped w/o weaning - although we have been doing that and then stopped on 3/11
-- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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Hi Judy,
Have to agree with Sherry here. "If you could take and post current hoof pictures following the guidelines posted in the Wiki: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help it would be very helpful. " This is especially difficult when Rosa is down,but many of us have had to do it this way, and it can give our hoof people something to work with. The rads in her album show toes too long,which can contribute to discomfort more than we realize. Hang in. Be picky about the details.That's where the devil is! -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario 2002 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Judy, As she's already off of it I wouldn't put her back on it but I did send you the information on tapering the bute and switching her to DC on the 5th: Re: Rosa - 18 year old POA winter laminitis help needed (groups.io) After being on the bute for a month and at the amount she was on she probably is having a rebound effect right now.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
HI Sherry,
She is not on Bute and we followed the group guidelines. We are still waiting for DC. Yes, we are aware of the rebound effect. It's just very, very difficult to watch her in so much pain. I understand pain is the body's way of healing. -- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
Hi Lorna,
We understand what the rads show. We had her feet trimmed ,he looked at the rads and understood what he saw. He took her toes back to the white line and lowered the heel a wee bit. He said it looks like her soul dropped a bit. What more can you suggest since he just did her feet? -- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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That is good,Judy.
Pictures would be really helpful. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario 2002 |
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With as long as her toes are I would suspect the trim was too conservative to do much. Heels also need to come down more than a wee bit. There is a possibility of ovarian involvement this time of year also.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Hi Judy. We know this is hard. Very hard. I almost put my horse down because it was too hard. We did figure out how to trim and get photos in all kinds of circumstances
The rads are from a month ago, but depending on how often and how significantly she was trimmed since, horses like this are most often just treading water. The best way to help the pain is to remove the cause (diet and/or Rx if needed) and trim often. Even every two weeks is not enough if the trimmer has gone only "to the white line" with a little heel off. She has a lot of toe and heel in the rads. These physiological issues need to be addressed. Pictures will show you. If it's abscess you need to be off NSAIDs, but I think you get this. Hang in there. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2023-2024 Skip and Sonny New Site CH links: Skip: https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=1 Sonny: https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=4 Beau groups.io CH links: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Beau ECIR Group NEW Case History site is now open Bookmark and save this link somewhere on your device(s). https://ch.ecirhorse.org/ |
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Judith, I know how hard this is because I went through it last spring and summer. I'm terrible at watching my horse in pain, and it hurt my heart. OTOH she got up every day to eat and drink, even if she went back down in the shaving ASAP. She enjoyed being groomed.
A major issue is how how high Rosa's insulin is. I see you increased Rosa's Metformin as suggested by Dr Kellon https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/288334 and clarified by Sherry https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/289202 Before making any decisions, you should assess Rosa's current insulin. I'd run those labs ASAP. High insulin is the enemy. I can offer this small observation on trimming through the white line. In the process of realigning my mare's trims, my trimmer needed to rasp through the white line on both front hooves at least twice, following mark-ups from radiographs. Absolutely nothing awful happened. There was no spurting blood, no worse pain. He explained that most trimmers don't like to do a major trim through the white line because clients aren't prepared to use boots and pads and to expect maybe a day or two's discomfort. No trimmer wants to hear the pony is more sore after a trim. I kept in mind that my mares wasn't going to heal existing poor laminar connections the way we knit a broken bone. She needs to grow new ones from the top down, meaning from the coronary band down to the ground, with the CB suspended from the new connections. To do that, she needs her trim to be spot on so she's not wasting time growing out bad new connections AND she needs to have her insulin controlled at the same time. Please post your hay test in your CH folder or take a cell phone photo of it and post it in your Photo Album. It helps to have another set of eyes to check just to be sure. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Diamond's CH at ch.ECIRHorse.org Cayuse and Diamond Old Case Histories pre-2023Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
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Hi Judy, quick question, is
the pergolide powder loose in a contain, and you scoop it up each time?
Or is in capsules? -- Ellen Pal & Savvy N. Alabama Aug 2013 Case History |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
I have photos. My brain is shot. Can I send them to someone to download them for me. The farrier is on his way and will be here in about 30 minutes (3:30pm MST)
-- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
Farrier took off 3/4 inch of toe. He said it looked like her soul dropped as well
-- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
HI Cass,
The vet is coming out on Thursday to get a current read on her insulin, following 2-3 weeks of being on Metformin. I have no problem with sore feet after a trim. We understand this is part of the process. If there was blood, we understand this as well. Hay test was posted when I created the CH. -- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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Sandy Olds
My vet just started my pony on 1200 mg of gabapentin 2x day
-- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Sandy, Please see this message from Dr. Kellon about Gabapentin: Re: Flea's high insulin/laminitis while on Invokana - switch to Steglarto? (groups.io)
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Hi, Judy.
Helping an actively laminitic equine involves a lot of detail work. We're here to help evaluate your information, but you need to supply the facts for us. The new Case History website is up and running. You might find it much easier to enter and update information on the website instead of using the old form. Here is the link: https://ch.ecirhorse.org/ Step #1 is to click the green box at the bottom of the page that says Membership Request. Don't enter a user name and password until after you receive an email that you've been approved for membership. Detailed instructions start here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/33272 I'm sorry but I can't find the hay test in either your photo album or in your case history folder. I checked both.There's a comment in your CH document, but we need to make sure the actual hay test is being evaluated properly. At this point you need to make a choice about where to put your new information: the old CH folder, which will be shut down in about two weeks, or in a new CH using the the Case History Website. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Diamond's CH at ch.ECIRHorse.org Cayuse and Diamond Old Case Histories pre-2023Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
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JUDITH S. SCHNEIDER
HI Cass,
My apologies for being a wee bit snippy with my responses. Just a bit overwhelmed. I do appreciate the group and all of the support/information -- Judy S in NM 2023 |
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Hi Judy,
This is horrible to deal with and I understand the emotion behind it as I have had to manage cold onset laminitis with my mare as well. Here are a few steps I took to manage it and also to keep it from coming back: 1. I put her in her stall, booted with ALOT of shavings and got her medicated. 2. I had the vet do xrays to make check rotation of the coffin bone. 3. Her soles were so thin they would bleed with a hoofpick. I thought this was it... 4. My farrier literally put on a "cast" on her front feet the last go around and she could immediately walk better. My farrier is Kim Power's (Michigan) you can probably find her on Facebook if you need to know more about the "casting" Maintenance: (Other than diet) 1. We have the versa grip glue ons with DIM This is expensive but she is doing so well with it. 2. Trimmed every four weeks. 3. I stall and blanket her during really cold weather. -- Jennifer S in MI, 2021 |
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