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Stabul1


donabcalhoun@...
 

Has anyone else tried Stabul1 and found it did not work well for their very sensitive / uncompensated IR horse?  I was excited to see Stabul1 more available and through Chewy since my TSC couldn't figure out how to order it.  I started it at a very small amount about 1 month ago - 1lb per day which is well below what the target but my guy is always super sensitive and we need to stay at or below 10% so I wanted to go slow.  Nothing else has changed in his environment, no grass, no other feed/supplement changes, same hay, etc etc.  He started looking like a laminitic event was brewing and I had the vet out yesterday.  He agreed that we are in the early stages of what appears to be another founder and needed to back out of my prior plan to go commercial with the Stabul1.  I have taken him back to the emergency diet and am re-balancing his diet leveraging feed xl but focusing on supplements that do not include any alfalfa meal which so many commercial items do.  

It is the only potential trigger I can find, just curious if anyone else has had a similar experience.  

Thanks!

--
Dona and Guinness
December 2017, Rougemont, NC
Guinness Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dona%20and%20Guinness 
Guinness Photo Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69379


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Dona,

Can you update your CH ? It doesn't really show a current picture of diet.
Last update was June ,2019 . 
If everything is exactly the same as last update,maybe put current date in space for last updated, so we know not to ask?

Have you had any blood  testing done since last May?

Hoping to get to the bottom of this new issue, with you.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Dona,

As Lorna already mentioned - we really need some more information from you.  Is the diet still the same as it was when you had the bloodwork done or did you change it after you got the results back?  If you changed it, did you have any follow up bloodwork done to see if his levels improved?  It could be just a coincidence that he started to have an issue after you started the Stabul 1 but without more information we're just guessing.




donabcalhoun@...
 

The diet in his case history was the same until I made the most recent change - removal of cavalor, inclusion of Stabul1.  I had not updated his diet because i was just in the process of making that change in the last month and it was not yet finalized, so it would have been premature to update.  And no in the last month since starting the Stabul 1 I have not had any blood work done, nor do I have time with Guinness to keep going to with the Stabul 1 and have blood work done.  He can go from fine to critical in no time, so I have made an immediate change 3 days ago stepping back and already I am seeing improvement - the only change is in the removal of the Stabul 1 and reinclusion of the Cavalor Fiber Force starting yesterday (when I could purchase a bag).  I was interested to hear if anyone else has reported similar findings - it may just be us.  I know there is not a lot of Alfalfa meal, but .....
--
Dona and Guinness
December 2017, Rougemont, NC
Guinness Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dona%20and%20Guinness 
Guinness Photo Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69379


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Dona,

"And no in the last month since starting the Stabul 1 I have not had any blood work done, nor do I have time with Guinness to keep going to with the Stabul 1 and have blood work done. "

I had actually wondered if there had been blood work since last May , not last month. But I'm guessing the answer is no.

Just trying to help you  suss out  what's going on with your boy.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


 

I feel like someone else reported a similar experience fairly recently, as in months, rather than years. I think it was about the same time that Stabul1 became available through Chewy.  Have you posted about this before, Dona?  So much of figuring out how to best care for these guys involves determining out what does or does not work for them.  Fortunately, Guinness gives you good feedback so you don't go too far astray.
I don’t think of my guys as being all that sensitive but I have a bag of Stabul1 I’m about to open, not having used it in several years due to TSC insufficiencies.  I will definitely be watchful, once I start feeding again.  My horses get Cavalor F/F as well, but only by the cupful.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


 

Hi, Dona. Here are my thoughts about Stabul 1 and Fiber Force and how they may be linked to Guinness' founder. 

First, as only one instance, when my Cayuse was undiagnosed PPID, her insulin shot up to 92 ulu/ml , ACTH  33.7 pg/ml at the time of year ACTH should have been lowest. Changing her feed wasn't going to fix her insulin, which dropped to 30 ulu/ml after I started her on pergolide, even as her ACTH went even higher at the start of the seasonal rise. Diet alone may not be the operative factor at work in your Guinness' present founder considering his age and recent history of high insulin. If he were mine, I'd check his ACTH, insulin, glucose ASAP. Updating your CH is critical, including information about whether you still turn him out on grass and his diet, including analysis of hay, if you have one. A current shot of his body condition would also help.

 Second, for a sensitive horse with insulin that high, I don't view one pound is a moderate amount of Stabul 1. Maybe you can explain what the "targeted amount" was for feeding Stabul 1. Many of us use smaller amounts to add to mineral supplements. For my sensitive TWH, I use about 1 ½ cup daily. though others feed more when weight gain is needed.

Third, comparing Stabul1 and FF analyses in Files,  FF had 3.5-4.2%ESC and 3.5-4.2% Starch + 5.9% Crude Fat. By comparison, Stabul1 showed 3.1-4.1ESC and 3.6-3.9% Starch (I never analyzed Crude Fat in Stabul1).  I don't think the differences are especially significant, though Dr Kellon may have a different view.  Two analyses of Fiber Force in the Files:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Cavalor 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History Folder                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History Folder              Diamond Photos 


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Dona,

Thinking.....just wondering if this link adds anything to your questions about Stabul 1
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/244485

Go to bottom of page and click on All 14  Messages, to read what went on in that conversation.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Any of these feeds that are safe on paper may cause problems for very sensitive/unstable horses. Maybe it's the higher starch. Maybe it's because they are digested more efficiently or absorbed more rapidly.  There are also horses than are unable to tolerate hays below 10% without hoof pain. As Cass said, it may not even be the feed. Just stop it, go to nothing but safe or soaked hay and small amount soaked beet pulp for supplements - or sprinkle them onto moist hay.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Good time for a reminder that horses with insulin issues don't need anything other than hay and certainly no more of a bagged feed than what it takes to get supplements in.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


donabcalhoun@...
 

Last May he was tested fully - while he did not present as PPID his age does put him in that zone, so we tested to be aware and he was not found to be PPID.  Nothing else in his environment or diet has changed.  He CANNOT tolerate any grass - he only lives in a dry lot or barn - no access to grass EVER.  I have uploaded my hay analysis and his last numbers last year.  I do try and keep everything updated - however when you are in the middle of a switch it isn't yet appropriate to make those updates.

Most people would not consider one measuring cup - actual measuring cup as excessive - it certainly it not within the Stabul1 recommended feeding range, nor had I planned to ever go above that quantity assuming he could tolerate it.  I am not feeding for weight gain.  the only real difference I could come up with between the Stabul1 and FF was the type of alfalfa used - meal versus the more fibrous bits.  Using just a cup of well washed/soaked/washed/soaked/etc beet pulp did not particuarly interest Guinness so I needed a little something else to tempt him to eat the minerals, etc.  

Thank you for your response.
--
Dona and Guinness
December 2017, Rougemont, NC
Guinness Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dona%20and%20Guinness 
Guinness Photo Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69379


donabcalhoun@...
 

It is appreciated.  That is correct, since last May no blood work/vaccinations/etc.  We went for it all last May - to determine if PPID was a factor, where we are with our controls, and titer testing so we could avoid all vaccinations.  I do plan to do some more testing soon - but typically when an insult occurs that is not the best time so my vet will be back soon to take blood and see where our numbers stand.  Other than adding in the Stabul1 or adding something like Metformin there really are no other controls - other than balancing out vitamins/minerals that can be added.  I even clean up dropped feed from other horses that come into the barn to eat.  The good news is he continues to look brighter day by day since stopping the Stabul1.  

Thank you!
--
Dona and Guinness
December 2017, Rougemont, NC
Guinness Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dona%20and%20Guinness 
Guinness Photo Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69379


riggslippert@...
 

Hi Dona,

FYI, I had previously investigated the alfalfa meal content of both feeds.  Randy Anderson stated that Stabul 1 and Stabul Nuggets are 1% alfalfa meal.  Cavalor stated that the Fiberforce had 22% alfalfa meal.  I'm assuming these numbers are as a percentage of DM.  Quite a difference!
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




 

Hi Dona,
Looking back again through your Case History, I wanted to make sure you know that the ranges that are given do not define ‘normal’.  They are an average of ACTH levels on horses which are evidently healthy.  It may include any number of horses that have early PPID.  An ACTH of 32.5 is within that range but might be considered borderline, rather than normal, especially in May.  It may be something to keep track of, especially before the next fall rise begins.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo