Date
1 - 20 of 28
Steaming hay verses water soaking
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Sandy Olds
My 17 yrs old Shetland has laminitis for the first time, I started him on the emergency diet until Igot my hay analysis done. My hay back with 7.86 ESC ,10.53 WSC and 3.39 starch. So I have been soaking and using beet pulp, and the other ingredients inemergency diet. The literature from ECIR uses a combination of ESC and starch lessthan10%. I’ve been working with a nutritionist and other literature uses the NSC which state it is WSCand starch , soI am confused about that.also,what is the feeling regarding steaming hay verses soaking.soaking is difficult in Wisconsin winter.
thank you, Sandy & thunder -- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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WSC includes fructan which does not increase insulin. The fructan levels found in our hays (WSC - ESC) are not even remotely high enough to cause a hind gut overload type laminitis. Steaming does not significantly lower ESC.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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nancyochi
I received the following information direct from the steamer manufacturer last year:
“Our studies, done across a wide variety of hay, have shown reductions in sugars from 3-15% depending on the amount of sugar in the hay to begin with. We do recommend consulting with your licensed Veterinarian to determine what’s best for your horse and to also have your hay tested to determine the baseline sugar levels. Steaming hay with our steamers not only removes dusts, but it also eliminates mold and bacteria. Nutritional values of the hay are retained, unlike soaked hay. So overall steaming does remove some sugars, but not as much as soaking. The sugar reduction is highly variable (average 18%) in hay that is only soaked. If you need more of a sugar reduction, we recommend soaking the hay first and then steaming for an hour to eliminate the bacteria and mold from the hay.” Thank you, Nancy -- Nancy O, Elbert County, CO, 2022 |
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Hi Nancy
I wanted to share some personal experience on soaking and historical evidence on steaming. First, the 18% average reduction is not what I experienced with soaking. My results were above 30% reduction. I have had clients who reduced by 50%. Members who tested steamed hay, found ESC not significantly reduced and not enough to make a high ESC hay safe. That makes sense to me b/c reducing ESC is all about how much water is used to achieve adequate removal. Here's a quick thread from the archives. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/74119379#249686 -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President 2023-2024 Skip and Sonny New Site CH links: Skip: https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=1 Sonny: https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=4 Beau groups.io CH links: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Beau ECIR Group NEW Case History site is now open Bookmark and save this link somewhere on your device(s). https://ch.ecirhorse.org/ |
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Steaming also reduces protein digestibility overall by more than 20% and specific essential amino acids by up to 50%. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9686632/
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Hi Sandy,
Personally, with a starch that high, I think your Shetland would do better on a different hay. Starch does not soak or steam out of hay, and it has double the effect that ESC has. While soaking your hay will help lower ESC so the combined ESC+starch does come down, it still might not be enough. But you'll know if you check his insulin...have you tested insulin on the soaked hay? How is he doing on the soaked hay? Is he pain-free? I'd look for hay with <2% starch, and ideally even less. I definitely would not stop soaking, way too risky with that hay analysis and a laminitic Shetland. Or, you could consider switching to Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance cubes. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Sandy Olds
What are the downfall effects of having pretty much a soaked diet with no dry forage? Since I’ve started him on the drained and rinsed beet pulp and the soaked snd drained hay, he drinks very little water. He still gets added salt 2 x a day snd still very little water is drank.
I am still confused by the ESC and WSC snd now the starch seems to be the worse culprit if all? All nutritionist and vets I have talked to still claim the WSC and starch …..so I guess I need further education /explanation to why ECIR is the only source that I have found that focuses on ESC. I bale my own hay from the pasture that I don’t feed my horses because I was always concerned about over eating and founder . I planted a product called “pasture perfect” for horses and rather than mow it as lawn decided to harvest it and not be dependent on others ….because hay growers around here do not test their hay , I am the only that I know of that even has a remotely understanding of all of this stuff. I am confused, dropped a ton of money and just sick of what has happened to this back yard pony . He has gotten better just not really good and today I built him a small lot so that he can be outside . He s only been outside of his stall about 6 times since Christmas …he is feeling better. It appears the more I read , including articles from Penn State, Michigan State, etc etc and even the responses here, the more I am confused. Right now he get 1/4 lb beet pulp , 1000 ie vit E and 1 Tblsp salt and 3 1/2 # wet soaked drained hay in net. At night , 1/4 c equishine balancer, 1 tbsp salt, 1/3 c stabilized flax, 1/4 # beet pulp, snd 31/2# soaked hay. This morning it was 15 degrees in my barn, I felt terrible giving him cold wet, ice covered hay. He s also on 2000 mg gabapentin 2 x day. He does finish the hay before his next feeding …I don’t know what to do about that. Is my hay numbers that bad?? It’s very frustrating . Sandy -- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Sandy. To answer your question about feeding all "wet" food...Dry hay is only dry until the pony chews it and its mixed with saliva and swallowed. Through out the entire GI tract, gastric secretions are added to the food...whether it is wet or dry food...the body does not change its processing of feed. Fresh grass has a very high water content. So, that is not "dry" either. He will absorb water from the GI tract via the body's mechanisms. He will supplement if he is thirsty.
If you are interested in estimating how much water he is actually ingesting in his wet feeds, you can weigh the food dry and then measure it again after being soaked. the difference will be your water weight. ( if you are soaking in a hay net, it will absorb water too, so you need to subtract off the wet hay net weight). Once you get your weight differences you can convert that into gallons...I use 1.5 Gallons of water to wet my ponies feed 2 times a day...so she ingests 3 gallons of water just from her food. And she has 3 gallons hanging in her stall. Sometimes, she drinks more than other times. Her manure is not dry and has a nice moist sheen to it. I feed salt too. Once I weighed everything, I felt better about how much she was already ingesting. -- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Primary Responder New CH for Dolly https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=50 Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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Hi Sandy,
Its the combined effect of ESC and starch that cause glucose in the blood to go up, and consequently insulin rises to whatever level it needs to be at in order to control the glucose and keep it within a fairly tight range. So feeding foods that increase blood glucose a lot are also going to increase insulin a lot. The reasons I'm concerned about starch. You have a laminitic mini, and they seem to be the most sensitive to diet. We know shorter equines are more likely to be genetically programmed to have EMS, and possibly the shorter they are the harder they are to manage. We see a lot if laminitic minis here. The upper range of what is ok for a 16HH horse with EMS is more likely not going to be safe for a mini with EMS. Your hay already over our upper cutoff of 10% ESC+starch (it is 11.3%) for a 'typical' EMS horse. Many of us have horses that need a cut off of 7%, or even less! In the same way, 4% starch is an upper limit and is only ok if ESC is really low or if the horse isn't as sensitive. That's because starch is converted 100% to glucose when metabolized, whereas ESC is converted only 50% to glucose. That means that a starch of 3.4% like yours is going to have essentially the same effect that an ESC of 6.8% (3.4x2) has on blood glucose levels. And starch does not soak out. So add the equivalent of 6.8% ESC (from starch) that won't soak out to the actual ESC in the hay, and you are well over our 10% cutoff (6.8+7.86=14.66...that's the same as feeding a hay with 14.5% ESC and 0.1% starch!). You can see why starch is best if it's kept lower in the hay. Another way to look at it for sensitive or harder to manage EMS horses is in terms of "glucose equivalents". 3.4% starch converts 100% to glucose = 3.4% glucose equivalent 7.86% ESC converts ~50% to glucose = 3.93% glucose equivalent Total glucose equivalent =7.33% (that's getting up there...do not confuse this number with our 10% ESC+starch cutoff because for glucose equivalents a more appropriate number is closer to 5%). Some horses are more sensitive to the ESC and starch and need these numbers to be lower. There are lots of hays out there with 1% or less starch. If you're cutting your own hay, I think high starch is often from cutting when seed heads are on the hay and you might be able to lower it by changing the maturity level you cut hay at (immediately after dropping seed heads is good, or before they develop). You can also lower ESC by cutting hay early in the morning (dawn) after a warm night or after a warm overcast day. I hope that helps clarify and not confuse. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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He has gotten better just not really goodSandy, now you need to determine if he is in pain because insulin is still high (get bloodwork done), or hooves need some corrective trimming (post photo here for feedback), and/or cold weather is still causing pain (warm him up more). He might not mind the cold hay, but can you keep his hay somewhere warmer until you feed it? My feed room has a heater that keeps it above freezing and I put the soaked morning hay in there for overnight, resting on a grate in a Rubbermaid bin so it can drain even more. Or in a heated garage? At least its a small amount to move around. BTW, I should add that if your hay blend has legumes in it, that will also increase starch regardless of seed heads. One if the reasons we strongly recommend only feeding grass hay. You can use WSC numbers to communicate with your professionals, just be aware that WSC = ESC + fructans, and we KNOW fructans DO NOT CAUSE METABOLIC laminitis or pasture laminitis. -- Kirsten and Shaku (EMS + PPID) and Snickers (EMS) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album Snickers' Case History Snickers' Photo Album |
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Sandy Olds
That makes much more sense to me..thank you! One other question , I am feeding the weighed hay and soaked in a small net, but it does not last him until the next feeding. They get fed at 5:30 am and 5:30 pm. I read that they are not suppose to be with out food, but if I feed him more it will be over the amount I am suppose to. So what should I do to keep the insulin from spiking?
-- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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Trisha DePietro
Hi Sandy. Do you know how long it takes for your mini to complete his hay net? They can go 4-6 hours without hay/feed.
-- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Primary Responder New CH for Dolly https://ch.ecirhorse.org/case-history.php?id=50 Dolly and Hope's Case Histories Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos HOW TO SEARCH THE ARCHIVES: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1993 |
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Hi Sandy when you say 'small net' do you mean a hay net with small holes? Is there a way you can divide the hay up into smaller feedings so he's being fed 3 or 4 times a day instead of only 2x a day?
Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Sandy Olds
I can’t do more than 2 feedings as I leave for work at 6:30 and get home at 5:30!
-- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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Sandy Olds
Yes, it is a plastic/ nylon with smaller holes . I have hay chix nets with 1 in holes, but they are very expensive to replace and the water will wreck them. The plastic/nylon does not freeze as much . They probably go about 4-5 hrs after he has finished before the next feeding.
-- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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Sherry Morse
If he's only going 4 - 5 hours with no hay between feedings he's probably not having any issues.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Sandy, I’ve never seen damage to my 1” Hay Chix nylon nets from water. The polypropylene plastic nets do dry faster and never get sour, so I prefer them for soaking hay. Tough 1 has a 1” net.
-- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Diamond's CH at ch.ECIRHorse.org Cayuse and Diamond Old Case Histories pre-2023Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
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Sandy Olds
I’ve been working with a nutritionist who recommend Equi-Shine ration balancer to supplement the vit minerals from my hay analysis. I see it s not on your list of acceptable ration balancers , however, my vet says it was developed by veterinarians for horses in the area of where we live. Your thoughts?
Sandy & Thunder -- Sandy olds WI 2023 |
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We need to see your hay analysis and a link to the ingredients in the supplement.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Sandy.
I use my hay chix nets to soak my hay. They held up great. No damage. I throw them in the wash occasionally when they get smelly. -- Alicia Holicky in MN 2022 |
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